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Old 11-20-2019, 07:01 AM   #1
jfaberna
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LCI hydraulic pump breaker?

I have a 2014 3402RL and it has whatever hydraulic pump circuit breaker was installed by Keystone in November of 2013. I've read about people having their breaker trips especially in colder weather. I have not used my RV in cold weather that much, but this year it's parked in the backyard and I've been doing a lot of projects on it and opening the slides a lot so I've experienced the breaker tripping more than before. So I thought I'd investigate.

The advice seems to be replace the 50A with an 80A breaker. I have no idea what mine is I have a picture of what I think is the breaker. The red thing on the right has a big wire going to the battery and the red thing on the left has a wire going to the pump. Not sure what to replace or how to find out which of the 2 red things is a breaker that needs to be replaced. Also where do you get a new breaker?

FYI, I have a battery monitor and when I'm putting out the slides I see 70 amps on the ODS slides and 90 amps on the DS slide. Coming in I see 80 amps on the OSD slides and 115 amps on the DS slide. Not sure why a 50 amp breaker wouldn't trip every time the pump was started?


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Old 11-20-2019, 09:02 AM   #2
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Hey Jim,

The red thing on the left, with the wire going to the pump, is the breaker you want to replace.

I used this one...

https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-CB18...9HY/ref=sr_1_1
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:16 AM   #3
twindman
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Jim, the hole in the wire may need to get 'reamed' out to fit on some breakers. Maybe arkware can tell you if this will be needed.
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Old 11-20-2019, 10:50 AM   #4
jcurtis934
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If I had a current probe I would measure my hydraulic pump motor to see what it now reads after all these years. But your noted currents seem way high to me. My guess is that you are not connected to a "shore power" source in your backyard and therefore the battery/batteries are sagging in voltage as this high load is being placed on them. Therefore that motor is demanding more current to keep it operating normally. If you see these types of readings when hooked up to a 50 amp pedestal, you might be having a motor that is having issues. Those cheapie self resetting bimetallic "breakers" installed by keystone will require less and less current to open them as the contacts burn from arcing.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:13 PM   #5
jfaberna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkware View Post
Hey Jim,

The red thing on the left, with the wire going to the pump, is the breaker you want to replace.

I used this one...

https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-CB18...9HY/ref=sr_1_1
Thanks for the link.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:20 PM   #6
jfaberna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcurtis934 View Post
...My guess is that you are not connected to a "shore power" source in your backyard and therefore the battery/batteries are sagging in voltage as this high load is being placed on them. Therefore that motor is demanding more current to keep it operating normally. If you see these types of readings when hooked up to a 50 amp pedestal, you might be having a motor that is having issues. Those cheapie self resetting bimetallic "breakers" installed by keystone will require less and less current to open them as the contacts burn from arcing.
I'm not connected to 120V as you suspected. Since I got my Victron Energy BVM 712 I've been keeping a close look at ah used and max currents along with battery capacity %. My batteries are 2-6 volt deep cycle golf cart batteries in series rated at 210 ah at 20hr. (C20=210). while the current does go high it's just for 45 seconds total. So the ah used to open and close them is a total of 5 ah. So it's seems to be a small percentage of my total capacity.

I'll check the voltage dip the next time I put out the slides on battery and then on 50A shore power to compare.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:55 PM   #7
Daryles
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Have a look in the files section
http://www.montanaowners.com/forums/...hp?do=cat&id=3
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Old 11-20-2019, 08:30 PM   #8
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I agree that the breaker on the left is most likely the one to replace. But just to make sure before you start changing it, trace the large black wire from your pump to make sure it goes to that breaker.
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:25 PM   #9
rohrmann
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The large hot wire comes from the battery and connects to the line side of the first breaker. Off the line side of the first breaker is a jumper that continues the battery feed to the line side of the second breaker on the left. Off of the load side of the second breaker is two cables, one that feeds the hydraulic pump and the other that feeds the inside electric panel 12 volt section, via the battery disconnect switch. 12 volts from the batteries feed all the 12 volt loads in the panel, but through that same line is also 12 volts from the converter that feeds the batteries when you are connected to shore power. When the cheap 50 amp bi-metal breaker starts to weaken from age and use, no amount of shore power will make it work to handle the load from the hydraulic pump. Our rig was barely 12 months old when the breaker started causing issues and I found the fix of replacing the breaker with the 80 amp breaker. We have had zero issues since the replacement and we full time. And yes, you will have to open up the holes in the ring connectors a bit to fit the larger terminal posts on the 80 amp breaker, but just connect the cables to the new breaker exactly as they are connected to the old breaker, and the new breaker will have indications showing which is the line and load side.
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Old 11-21-2019, 03:39 AM   #10
jfaberna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rohrmann View Post
The large hot wire comes from the battery and connects to the line side of the first breaker. Off the line side of the first breaker is a jumper that continues the battery feed to the line side of the second breaker on the left. Off of the load side of the second breaker is two cables, one that feeds the hydraulic pump and the other that feeds the inside electric panel 12 volt section, via the battery disconnect switch. 12 volts from the batteries feed all the 12 volt loads in the panel, but through that same line is also 12 volts from the converter that feeds the batteries when you are connected to shore power. When the cheap 50 amp bi-metal breaker starts to weaken from age and use, no amount of shore power will make it work to handle the load from the hydraulic pump. Our rig was barely 12 months old when the breaker started causing issues and I found the fix of replacing the breaker with the 80 amp breaker. We have had zero issues since the replacement and we full time. And yes, you will have to open up the holes in the ring connectors a bit to fit the larger terminal posts on the 80 amp breaker, but just connect the cables to the new breaker exactly as they are connected to the old breaker, and the new breaker will have indications showing which is the line and load side.
Great explanation. What is the first breaker on the right and should it every be replaced???
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:46 AM   #11
rohrmann
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The other breaker has the small loads that aren’t connected to the main panel, such as the LP detector and on some rigs the CO detector. I just replaced the other one and have never had an issue with this one.
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Old 11-25-2019, 10:48 AM   #12
jfaberna
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Thanks all for your help. I replaced the 50amp breaker with the Cooper Bussmann 80amp and it's working fine. It did not trip when I put the main slides out today and the current stayed about the same. The voltage does drop while operating to as low as 11.3v. Jumps back up to 12.6v when it stops.

I have not checked the current and voltage when the slides are extended while the 120 AC is hooked up. It can only get better than it is now which is no problems. My desire is to not have the RV plugged in all winter. No need to have the cord spread across the yard because the solar keeps the batteries in shape.
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Old 11-27-2019, 01:21 PM   #13
RichardSRY
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My RV mechanic replaced my old CB in my 2013 3402RL with the one below and everything works great. I bought an extra just to have on hang.



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Old 02-25-2020, 10:27 AM   #14
DoctorO21
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For the novice electrician...when replacing the breaker, do you need to first disconnect the negative ground wire on the battery? Thought I better ask before my wife finds my on my back in the driveway!
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Old 02-25-2020, 11:45 AM   #15
Daryles
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Disconnecting the -ve is not a bad idea. Less sparking.

80A circuit breaker
This is a link to the manual reset version-
https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-BP-C.../dp/B001PYL1VM
Automatic reset one (in the picture)
Bussmann CB181F-80 80 Type I Flush Mount High Amp Circuit Breaker, 30Vdc, One Per Box (1-Pack) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008QDI9HY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_7B0oEbRQQ00AE

Affinity installed the 80A one in the picture (under warranty). If you follow the fat red wire from the battery box (bottom right) it goes to the first breaker left post. Then you have a short 3" jumper to the 2nd breakers right post. On this post they tied in the 80A breaker that goes to the hydraulic motor dual polarity solenoid.
So electrically speaking, the 80A is tied to the battery + post. By doing this they placed the hydraulic system on its own circuit breaker without changing anything else.
No need to actually replace the existing 50A one. Just put a short 4 gauge jumper from the + side (battery feed side) of the existing 50A breaker to the 80A one then put the cable from the hydraulic pump dual polarity solenoid to the other side of the 80A breaker.
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Old 02-25-2020, 12:35 PM   #16
Carl n Susan
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While the hydraulic pump is now effectively wired from the battery to the 80 amp breaker, the other line from the left 50 breaker goes to the fuse panel. If you have severally depleted your batteries and the converter tries to apply a maximum charge, that 50 amp breaker, which may have been weakened over time, may trip. It is most noticeable if using a generator to supply coach power. The gennie will ramp up RPM until the CB opens. Then it drops to idle until it closes. It keeps doing this up and down RPM process repeatedly. Stick your head in the basement near the left breaker and you will hear the CB clicking on and off.

Benn there, done that and have the T shirt to prove it.
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Old 02-25-2020, 12:41 PM   #17
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So, are you suggesting to NOT daisy chain the 80 amp breaker to the existing 50 amp breaker? Most posts have recommended swapping out the 50 with a new 80. What are you recommending?
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Old 02-25-2020, 12:57 PM   #18
rohrmann
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The breaker that feeds the hydraulic pump with power also feeds power to the main panel inside through the battery disconnect switch in the convenience center and also carries power back to the batteries from the converter. Why this works with only one breaker is because the hydraulic pump rarely is working at the same time you have 12 volt loads inside the rig. It would be wise if you are replacing the breaker with an 80 amp breaker and you wanted it separate from a second breaker to the inside panel to replace the old 50 amp breaker with a new one at least 50 amps. You can use an 80 amp breaker on both, but since I replaced our breaker over six years ago, it has never tripped, so I don't see a need to have an additional breaker.
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Old 02-25-2020, 02:05 PM   #19
DoctorO21
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I think I'll keep it simple and just swap the 50 with a new 80.
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Old 02-26-2020, 07:18 AM   #20
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This weekend I upgraded my CB from the 50amp to the 80 amp as well as installed the 300 amp in-line fuse to my 2000 watt Magnum Inverter. Take note that the posts on the 80 amp CB are larger in diameter than those on the 50 amp CB. While the cable eyelet/connector on the larger cable can be easily enlarged with a drill, the eyelet on the smaller gauge wire had to be replaced to accommodate the larger post.
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