Diff. between backing TT and 5er - Montana Owners Club

Wordsmith · 03-07-2005, 01:36 PM

As we all know, backing can often be a major pain, and on some occasions might even qualify as grounds for divorce from either spouse's point of view, but as a person who is only familiar with backing travel trailers, I was wondering what tips any of you could give me on backing a 5er as it looks like my wife and I are growing very close to purchasing the 2003 3295RK at which we have been looking.

Taking it slow is a given and I am prone to get out of the truck and scope out the surroundings as well, but anything else will be greatly appreciated!

trukdoc · 03-07-2005, 02:11 PM

Having pulled both 5ers and TT's I find the 5er much easier to back up. Largely due to being able to "Jack Knife" the trailer. With a TT you must be careful not to cut too sharp to avoid hitting bumper and trailer and damaging the tounge of trailer. BUT, If you have a short bed and a 5er as I do. Be careful backing. Most turns, I do not have any problem. In tight manuvers the 5er can hit the cab. The way to get around this is to get a sliding hitch or a super slide. As far as pulling the trailers the 5er wins without question. I just finished a 3000 mile trip in all weather conditions. Run the 75 MPH speed limit across New Mexico and Arizona and never had any stability problem. I even had a full load of water. I know someone will jump in and tell me I should slow down and smell the Roses. Being that I am still a working stiff. Time is of the essence.
Hope this helps.

Wordsmith · 03-07-2005, 03:16 PM

Thanks for the response! Sounds like we have almost the same truck, except mine is the extended cab. I am taking it tomorrow to have a Superglide hitch installed, so I hope that will help prevent the 5er from making contact with the truck’s cab.

I have just heard that 5ers cut much more quickly than a TT and do not know if that is for the better or worse…

Montana_2785 · 03-07-2005, 10:04 PM

Actually, a 5er reacts more SLOWLY than a TT.

The ball for a TT hitch is at the end of a several foot arm from the rear axle of the truck. The importance of knowing this is that the truck "pivots" around its rear axle. When you turn the truck, the ball will start to swing and start the TT on its turn right away.

For the 5er, the hitch is right over the rear axle of the truck. So when the truck begins its turn (pivots about its rear axle), the 5er doesn't see any of that. The truck just spins under the King Pin. Instead, the 5er won't see any turning motion until the truck has had a chance to change angles enough so that the rear axle is moving at an angle to the 5er. The result is that the 5er is slower to start AND STOP turning. It will take the same amount of time to go from turning to going in a straight line again. It also takes up to perhaps 50% more backing room (sharper the turn, more space required to manouver) than a TT because of the additional "time" to change directions.

My wife learned to give me really good backing directions with the TT. For the limited backing we have done with the Monty so far, she is a little frustrated. It takes me a lot longer to comply with the turn & straighten out commands and she (and I ) need to learn the differences in timing.

In short, it's the same but different

Eric

Bowie · 03-08-2005, 01:38 AM

Yes, backing is a pain--but we haven't figured out how to avoid it. As you do Wordsmith, we get out and walk every site before we try to insert ourselves. This does occasionally frustrate someone waiting to get by--but it's not their rig. We spent a few bucks and bought a good walkie talkie. It makes the director/driver communication a less public affair and you aren't nearly as much fun for the sidewalk superintendents to chuckle over. And speaking of them, as you well know, they can occasionally be the biggest frustration of all or the ablest assistance when it comes to backing. We should all ask ourselves which category we fall in. Stay safe.

rlwhit · 03-08-2005, 02:27 AM

The change in pivot points makes la lot of difference. You may want to try what I did when when got our 5er. Went to a big vacant parking lot and practiced for considerable time. I know that with the wife trying to help and give instructions and the old man not hearing well and doing what he thinks is right makes for one hell of a strain on a good marriage. Find I do more "back and fills" than with a TT. When parking at home have to back up about 200yards and make a 90. It is getting better.

Dick
'

Glenn and Lorraine · 03-08-2005, 02:44 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Eric Roellig

Actually, a 5er reacts more SLOWLY than a TT.

The ball for a TT hitch is at the end of a several foot arm from the rear axle of the truck. The importance of knowing this is that the truck "pivots" around its rear axle. When you turn the truck, the ball will start to swing and start the TT on its turn right away.

For the 5er, the hitch is right over the rear axle of the truck. So when the truck begins its turn (pivots about its rear axle), the 5er doesn't see any of that. The truck just spins under the King Pin. Instead, the 5er won't see any turning motion until the truck has had a chance to change angles enough so that the rear axle is moving at an angle to the 5er. The result is that the 5er is slower to start AND STOP turning. It will take the same amount of time to go from turning to going in a straight line again. It also takes up to perhaps 50% more backing room (sharper the turn, more space required to manouver) than a TT because of the additional "time" to change directions.

My wife learned to give me really good backing directions with the TT. For the limited backing we have done with the Monty so far, she is a little frustrated. It takes me a lot longer to comply with the turn & straighten out commands and she (and I ) need to learn the differences in timing.

In short, it's the same but different

Eric

Thank you Eric, that has to be the best explanation of backing a 5er that I have ever seen. I know how it all works but I could not have explained it as well.
I feel folks also get into a bad situation by not pulling ahead far enough before starting to back up. Because of the quicker response of the TT you can pull just past the site and begin backing but because of the slower response of the 5er you must pull ahead considerably further. I pull past the site at least the length of the truck and trailers total length.
BUT before I put it into Reverse I put it in Park. I get out and survey the entire site and set in my mind exactly where I want the the trailer to be setting once in the site.
Where possible I always try to have the site on my left side rather on the right or blind side. This way I always have a good view of where I want to go. Lorraine stays in view of my mirrors on the blind side watching for any obstacles. If there are no obstacles on my blind side or to the rear she pretty much does nothing.

Montana_2785 · 03-08-2005, 04:08 AM

On the topic of verbal directions, Mary Lou & I use the following rules:

First, use the CB (or other two way radio).

Second, we have agreed that her directions are with reference to where she wants the rear of the rig to go.

Third, the directions are to swing to the PASSENGER or DRIVER side. We never use right or left because it will be different for the two of us

Fourth, she looks UP as much as she looks to the sides.

No marital problems here!!!

Eric

Wordsmith · 03-08-2005, 04:50 AM

I appreciate the depth of response here…as well as the humor I knew some of you would find in the situation we all know so well. As to the “sidewalk superintendants,” I had forgotten about them as I always make a rule NOT to watch someone else back as I do not want them watching any of my potential pratfalls!

As to the actual backing, Eric, let me make sure I clearly understand what you are saying about being slow to stop a turn. Quite often when I back my TT, I make small, “quick” adjustments to where the camper is going. Would I be correct then to say that I will not necessarily enjoy this same luxury with the 5er?

I am giving some serious thought to trying the parking lot deal as we have a vacant one nearby.

sreigle · 03-08-2005, 06:40 AM

I think he's saying the fiver is slower to straighten out as well as to start the turn. I agree with all the great advice here. I also pull farther past the site before starting to back up. If the road past the site allows, I'll also swing the truck across the road until the trailer lines up behind it at an angle on the road. That reduces the sharpness of the turn while backing. But if the access road is narrow, then it seems to work better to crowd the edge of the road on the side I want to turn the trailer into and jackknife the trailer into the site. At least that's how I was taught by an oldtimer who guided us into a very, very difficult site. He said that gives the truck room to maneuver without running into obstacles on the opposite side of the road. And it worked.

You might consider a cheap set of walkie talkies so your partner can talk you into the site. I still get out and scope things out for myself. In a tight site I'll do that several times if I get at all uncomfortable with not being able to see exactly where the trailer is going.

You'll do the best job when nobody is around to see it and you'll screw it up most often when others are watching. Works that way for me, anyhow.

Besides backing very slowly, dial in more or less turn very slowly to see how much it reacts, too. Backing slowly gives you some time to judge the reaction. If all else fails, pull back out and start over. We all have done that and still have to do that sometimes. Always when others are watching, of course.

Montana_2785 · 03-08-2005, 08:25 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Wordsmith

[...]

As to the actual backing, Eric, let me make sure I clearly understand what you are saying about being slow to stop a turn. Quite often when I back my TT, I make small, “quick” adjustments to where the camper is going. Would I be correct then to say that I will not necessarily enjoy this same luxury with the 5er?
[...]

That's what I'm saying. You won't be able to do the "small quick" adjustments, you will need to learn to do "small slow(er)" adjustments over a longer distance.

What I've been doing so far (since I haven't figured out the new timing) is that Mary Lou tells me to turn so I start a turn like I would with the TT. Then, because she is used to me being able to turn right away, she starts telling me Turn, TURN!!! So I crank into a tighter turn. By this time she is telling me to straighten out but it takes so much longer to STOP turning (compaired to the TT) that I have to stop and pull forward to correct the mess I've made.

You need to learn to anticipate further ahead so you don't over compensate your turning effort. I have a ways to go yet

We learn by doing.....so go and DO!

The good part of all of this is that everyone I've talked to who has a lot of 5th wheel experience (and this includes an Uncle who has been a trucker all his life) tells me that ultimately, the 5th wheel is the most comfortable to back of all towables.

Eric

Wordsmith · 03-08-2005, 11:31 AM

Eric, I do intend to do…just need to have the camper in hand first!

Hopefully, it will be sitting in my yard in the next two weeks, and I can practice some. As I told my wife, we are spending too much money not to camp more than we have, so I intend to get plenty of practice the rest of the year.

At least it is nice to know that once I become accustomed to backing the 5er that it should be all down hill from there.

richfaa · 03-08-2005, 12:13 PM

We found that we do better as a team with the Wife doing the backing and me telling her when to make the turn. I can better see the "big picture" from the outside. Standing away from the unit I can better judge when to make the turn than from the inside. Speaking of "a Team" the wife can do everything that I can with the unit, always could. Driving, Backing, hooking, unhooking, Etc. When I was still working there were times when the Wife would drive the rig to the campground, unhook, set it up and have a black Russian waiting when I got there....she is a good girl... besides if something would happen to the guy and the wife knows nothing...then what....

Wordsmith · 03-08-2005, 12:32 PM

Rich, I have been extremely impressed with how my wife jumps in on all aspects of setting up or taking down the campsite, and she will even back up the truck when I hook it up to our TT, but she refuses to tow it or back it. With all that she does do, I refuse to press her on it, but I will keep encouraging her to tow the Tt or the 5er when we get it for the very same reason as you give.

richfaa · 03-08-2005, 01:33 PM

Yes wordsmith..The wife should be able to do everything.. For SAFETY reasons.To many times we have seen where the 'GUY' hurts his leg, twist his ankle, can't find his glasses, doesn't feel good. and the wife says.."but he never let me drive" If it's a guy thing it's a dumb thing. For safety reasons alone the wife should know how to handle the rig...besides.. I don't really like to drive all that much..

Native Tex · 03-08-2005, 01:41 PM

Having come from a TT to a 5er like most of the rest of you, we too have had to adjust to the backing issues/differences. Eric has given a great summation and agree that taking it slow is the best. We still have to invest in walkie-talkies. (We are going to have to do this in order to keep the divorce rate low.) My wife has no intentions of driving, but will guide along with helping to do the hitching and unhitching. She has a dreaded phobia of traffic and the coach. These are all great ideas and they are all much appreciated.

richfaa · 03-08-2005, 01:52 PM

Oh..just a comment on the backing issue..I've done both and yes it is a bit different with a fiv'er but if you have been pulling for any length of time it will take about 15 mins to figure out the difference..give yourself some credit..Another thing..Since retirement I drive busses all kinds of busses right now School bus and we are told that 80% of ALL accidents happen..when backing.. I will drive out of my way NOT to back up. Same with the RV..we will back it in if we have to but we are always looking for pull throughs...We do have to back the **^)#@#$$ thing up into our driveway and along side the house..what fun...(the wife does it)
I stand in a safe place with the two way radio saying turn hard now, strighten it out.. try to miss the house.. you are lined up with the boards...all stop...good job..

scrowba · 03-08-2005, 01:52 PM

All this talk about parking is getting me scared

. When and if it every stops snowing up here in Maine, I'm parking in the fields my first year out.

Virgil · 03-09-2005, 03:23 AM

As has been stated in the previous messages, 3 items are great for backing; practice, patience and partner. The most significant thing is go slow. Imagine where you want the trailer to go and you will get it there. Who cares if anyone is watching? If they give you a hard time, ask them to park it for you. That will quieten them down as they likely do worse than you at backing. With our previous 5'r, we met a group of friends for a weekend campout. The campground was full and the room was limited. I pulled up, jack knifed the trailer in perfectly first time. I looked up, pretty proud of that and got the comment, "Dang that was pretty good". lol.. That made the whole weekend. That makes up for at least 10 backing flubs. Good luck.

Bill Hill · 03-09-2005, 05:27 AM

This has been a great thread and I had to chuckle at how many of your experiences sound like us. We too use walkie talkies and that has helped tremendously. And I've learned a new trick from this thread as well, regarding how the "spotter" tells the driver where she wants the rig not so much as when to turn it. We've had some adjusting to do since we changed from a TT to a 5er. All the comments about the slower changeover on a 5er from a TT are all so true.

You may also like: