Leaky Dual Pane windows

[Montana_3583]

My parents just picked up their new 3400RL a few weeks ago. Since that time they have been plagued with problems. Mostly they were little problems the dealer fixed right up however the leaky windows could not be fixed by the dealer.

They ordered the 5th wheel with the dual pane windows highly tinted. Ofcourse they paid extra for them. They live in the unit year round and some times in cold climates so they need them.

The windows came barely tinted and every single window leaks water into the trailer when it rains or when washing it. They took it back to the dealer who ran a pressure test by filling the trailer with air pressure while soaping the windows. The dealer confirmed that it was the window tracks. The water collects in the track and runs right inside and right down the walls. Even light rain fall does not drain away outside fast enough to prevent it leaking inside.

My dad being the man he is pulled the trailer to the manufacturer to put the problem in thier laps. Apparently the windows are farmed out but the folks that build them are right on site. The window manufacturers spent three hours trying to convince my dad that water entering the trailer via the window tracks was normal and they would not be able to fix it. At that point my dad asked where they wanted the f....ing trailer parked. They finally admitted they were aware of some problems and as a matter of fact had made an engineering change a couple of weeks ago. They agreed to make a whole new set of windows at thier cost and install them. However at the last they insisted they still would not guarantee that water would not come in the trailer even with the new windows.

Oh and to top it off they told my dad that even though he ordered high tint they did not do that and would not be able to do it. Then five minutes later they about faced and said they would do a deep tint.

He is not at all happy with his purchase experience so far. I think minus the problems he likes the trailer but having to tow it to the manufactuer and argue to get an obvious problem fixed is not endearing him to the manufactuer.

I do not know the final outcome yet but my dad assumes they would not agree to make a new set of windows unless they knew some things they were not admitting. So he thinks the new windows will not leak.

I was really wondering after this big post if anyone else has recently purchased a unit with the dual pane window option and did they too have leaks or water running freely in through the tracks.

Part of what bothers me is I have anderson windows on my home and the weep holes are only on the tracks on the part that opens. You cannot see them on the inside. My mother said she can see right out the weep holes from inside the trailer. they freely let air in and out. What is the point of a dual pane window if your weep holes let air flow freely in and out? It sounds like those windows are badly engineered or installed wrong.

[RC and Samantha]

quote:Originally posted by montanaowner

My parents just picked up their new 3400RL a few weeks ago. Since that time they have been plagued with problems. Mostly they were little problems the dealer fixed right up however the leaky windows could not be fixed by the dealer.

They ordered the 5th wheel with the dual pane windows highly tinted. Of course they paid extra for them. They live in the unit year round and some times in cold climates so they need them.

The windows came barely tinted and every single window leaks water into the trailer when it rains or when washing it. They took it back to the dealer who ran a pressure test by filling the trailer with air pressure while soaping the windows. The dealer confirmed that it was the window tracks. The water collects in the track and runs right inside and right down the walls. Even light rain fall does not drain away outside fast enough to prevent it leaking inside.

My dad being the man he is pulled the trailer to the manufacturer to put the problem in thier laps. Apparently the windows are farmed out but the folks that build them are right on site. The window manufacturers spent three hours trying to convince my dad that water entering the trailer via the window tracks was normal and they would not be able to fix it. At that point my dad asked where they wanted the f....ing trailer parked. They finally admitted they were aware of some problems and as a matter of fact had made an engineering change a couple of weeks ago. They agreed to make a whole new set of windows at thier cost and install them. However at the last they insisted they still would not guarantee that water would not come in the trailer even with the new windows.

Oh and to top it off they told my dad that even though he ordered high tint they did not do that and would not be able to do it. Then five minutes later they about faced and said they would do a deep tint.

He is not at all happy with his purchase experience so far. I think minus the problems he likes the trailer but having to tow it to the manufactuer and argue to get an obvious problem fixed is not endearing him to the manufactuer.

I do not know the final outcome yet but my dad assumes they would not agree to make a new set of windows unless they knew some things they were not admitting. So he thinks the new windows will not leak.

I was really wondering after this big post if anyone else has recently purchased a unit with the dual pane window option and did they too have leaks or water running freely in through the tracks.

Part of what bothers me is I have anderson windows on my home and the weep holes are only on the tracks on the part that opens. You cannot see them on the inside. My mother said she can see right out the weep holes from inside the trailer. they freely let air in and out. What is the point of a dual pane window if your weep holes let air flow freely in and out? It sounds like those windows are badly engineered or installed wrong.

Montanaowner, do you have a Montana too? I see we are both from the same neck of the woods. Are your parents from Michigan as well?

We have dual paned windows on our Big Sky. It is an older Montana as it is just a bit over two years old now. We've not had any problems with water leaking in under any circumstances. We've been in some very heavy rains set up and while on the road.

Ours are tinted but I would not call them deep tinted. Of course maybe I don't know what deep tinted are? I don't think they are as tinted as the top of my wind shield on our truck?

My sister has the same model your parents have and has dual paned windows too and she's not had a problem.

I'm sure if anyone has had this problem they will pop in here and advise you.

I wonder what the change is that they made?

If we ever are fortunate enough to buy another Montana we'd get dual paned windows for sure.

Wishing your Dad all the best on the window replacements.

Patty

[Montana_3583]

quote:Originally posted by RC and Samantha
Montanaowner, do you have a Montana too? I see we are both from the same neck of the woods. Are your parents from Michigan as well?

We have dual paned windows on our Big Sky. It is an older Montana as it is just a bit over two years old now. We've not had any problems with water leaking in under any circumstances. We've been in some very heavy rains set up and while on the road.

Ours are tinted but I would not call them deep tinted. Of course maybe I don't know what deep tinted are? I don't think they are as tinted as the top of my wind shield on our truck?

My sister has the same model your parents have and has dual paned windows too and she's not had a problem.

I'm sure if anyone has had this problem they will pop in here and advise you.

I wonder what the change is that they made?

If we ever are fortunate enough to buy another Montana we'd get dual paned windows for sure.

Wishing your Dad all the best on the window replacements.

Patty

I do not currently have any kind of RV however both my parents and I are from Michigan. I am thier remote control internet access . They keep saying they are going to get a laptop and I keep looking stuff up for them on the internet

I just got off the phone with my dad getting an update. All but two of the new windows were finished and installed. To test it the meanufacture ran water with a hose on the side of the trailer above the window. Then my dad and one of the keystone people involved watched from the inside. Apparently water runs freely in between the seam between the inner and outer window. He left and came home with the promise that in two weeks when he returns they will have a fix for the issue.

My opinion is the problem started after an engineering change or a material change or something. They will get it figured out but it is still annoying and I am not sure how long my fathers patience will last. I think in two weeks they best have a solution. He was ready yesterday to load up a uhaul and leave the trailer parked at keystone.

I am not sure what the deal was on the tint. I got the impression he saw the tint at the dealer and it was not the same on the windows in his unit. From the sound of it the new windows had that part right. Too bad they still leak.

[HamRad]

montanaowner,
Random Line is the fellow you need to talk to about dual pane windows. He had one or two that always leaked. Took it in for a fix and they still leaked. Finally took it back right after the first Rally and got it fixed. Seems they had put in some of the windows upside down or backwards or some such thing. Anyway I think they finally fixed them as they should have. But you'll need to get that verified from Random Line. Hopefully he'll drop by soon and let us all know what the deal is.

HamRad

[Montana_3583]

quote:Originally posted by HamRad

montanaowner,
Random Line is the fellow you need to talk to about dual pane windows. He had one or two that always leaked. Took it in for a fix and they still leaked. Finally took it back right after the first Rally and got it fixed. Seems they had put in some of the windows upside down or backwards or some such thing. Anyway I think they finally fixed them as they should have. But you'll need to get that verified from Random Line. Hopefully he'll drop by soon and let us all know what the deal is.

HamRad

When my mom told me that she can see out the weep holes from the inside of the trailer I thought maybe the frames were in backwards as to my mind the weep holes should only be on the side of the frame that the slider is on. Meaning you should not be able to look out a little hole in the frame of your window when it is closed. Kinda defeats the purpose of closing them. I am going to get a look at them myself soon so maybe I will have a better idea what the problem really is.

[Montana_3583]

I went to see my parents new 5th wheel last weekened and it is a really nice trailer however I also saw what they were complaining about.

All but three of the windows were replaced in the last attempt to fix the issue so it was easy to see that the old windows did not recieve the tinting that was ordered on them. Further one of them was a single pane emergancy popout and it was supposed to be a slider like the rest. Lastly all of them the new windows included were leaking. It had been raining/snowing all night and all day and while the new windows did not leak as bad they were letting water in the trailer too. The old windows leaked so back water had to be wiped off the walls frequently.

They go back to the factory this week where the manufacturer has promised a solution waits.

To make maters worse thier furnace quit this past week.

[Wordsmith]

Man, when it rains it certainly pours—no pun intended—now that the furnace is giving them problems! I hope your parents’ camper is fixed soon so they can enjoy it free of troubles and worries. After all, that is one reason we buy the things!

Hang in there!

[campbud]

So sorry to hear this ...Have you called someone at Keystone? I can really understand why your parents are so upset. Let us know the outcome and we hope that they will get the windows in right with no leaks. Good Luck

[Random Line]

[quote]Originally posted by HamRad

montanaowner,
Random Line is the fellow you need to talk to about dual pane windows. He had one or two that always leaked. Took it in for a fix --------------------

Dennis,

Just happened to be lurking nearby and saw the windows topic. Then my ears started to ring (even more than usual) so I read my way down to here:

Yes we did have some strange experience on windows with our 2002 3255. One of them was indeed installed upside down. All of them had bad material in the felt gasket strips that the windows slide one and several of the insulated glass. (Double panes) had air leaks that allowed moisture between the panes. We put up with a lot of delay and evasion by the dealers staff over a year and a half plus more of the same by the window manufacturer to whom we were referred by Keystone customer service. (All of this by telephone) Then we went to the 2004 Rally and along with several other owners contacted Customer Service and were taken "Back to the Factory". We were treated decently there, service persons at the "Shop" took the trailer and replaced several of the windows and all of the defective gasket material. Things were much better after that. However I fear that a portion of one of our escape units that was replaced or rebuilt now has a part of it that is a Jalousie (sp) unit is single pane glass and one of the replaced/repaired windows had a leaky double pane unit. This one is one of the little peekaboo 4" by 6" sliding panes. It was defective from the day of the replacement.

Don't know when we will pursue satisfaction on these window items. Things have improved so much that I almost forgot about these later defects.

---OTHER NEWS--------

My Navigator and I spent the afternoon with our new house materials supplier rethinking the Anderson windows that we had designed. Too many of them were "Custom" shapes at astronomical prices. It seems that Marvin Windows has more choices available before the "custom" pricing kicks in. Tough choices to make.

Probably be another 6 weeks or so before full hookups will be available at our home building site. At that time we will leave this trailer park and move on site. Our home away from home will then become the on site project office. More fun. And Lobo loves it out there.

Stay tuned. You never know where these telegrams may show up here on the Forum.

Safe and interesting travels:

[Rick and Mary]

We just purchased a new 3400RL with dual panes. We picked up the unit in Florida on 4/4/05, the unit was ordered from the factory for us. So, it was probably manufactured two or three before 4/4/05.

We haven't had any problem with the dual panes, that we have noticed. But, we will watch closer the next time it rains. I don't see any holes on the inside of the windows, as you mentioned, for draining. So, it seems very strange....????

We have had a couple small problems...but nothing serious.

[Montana_3583]

My dad got the furnace working again with help from keystone over the phone but he was afraid of it since it would lite itself and heat the plenum without running the blower which as you can imagine is quite dangerous. When my parents went down to the factory this week for the windows Keystone could not reproduce the problem with the furnace but they replaced the furnace anyhow due to safety issue. I gotta give Keystone an a+ on customer service. The window company on the other hand sucks. The other three windows were replaced. They still leak. Even the keystone rep that was helping them with the window company was not happy with the new windows. It took them all of 30 seconds to see they did not fix the issue.

After seeing them I have a better idea of what I talking about. The top 2/3 or so of the glass is fixed and does not leak. The bottom portion is a two piece glass where one portion is fixed and one portion slides. The sliding portion is on the inside and the fixed portion on the outside. There is a metal track with weep holes all along the bottom on the inner portion. The metal track has a felt like material meant to seal the sliding portion of the window when it is closed. That material has slits in it that let water and air pass freely. The slits are meant to let any water drain out of the felt and hence out the weep holes. What happens is when the rain falls on the window it drips in that felt like liner in the track. If it is raining hard enough it fills that track and does not drain out the weep holes fast enough. once the track fills it runs over the inside and down the walls. Further on the first set of windows the seal between the outer fixed window and the inner slider had a dime thick gap that allowed water to run right in. The new windows do not have this gap but water still runs right in the track. WHile they were promised a solution during this factory visit none was forthcoming. They left with the promise that Keystone is now attempting to get new windows custom made by another window manufacturer. Windows that will be installed and tested someplace before they call my parents back to the factory. You would think since they have dual pane sliding windows in many trailers that do not leak they could revert to a design that works.

I dont know how it is going to turn out but I know my dad will not let the issue drop nor will he pursue a solution much longer. I think he is going to demand his money back and take legal action if necessary to get it.

Ya know it is a simple sliding window below a bigger window pane. conversion vans for instance have had windows exactly like these for years. I just looked at one the other day and they have no problems with air or water leaks even at speed on the highway.

[HamRad]

Hi Jim and Freddie and Lobo,
Good to hear all is going well. Custom ANYTHING seems to cost a LOT more than the standard stuff. Good luck with all that. What a lot of fun you guys are having! Sure hope they get the onsite stuff hooked up for you soon. That would have to be a ton of fun for Lobo. I know he loves to run and out there he'll have a lot of room. Plus you guys will be happier too, I'm sure.

Rick and Mary,
Great to hear from you folks. Congratulations on the new rig! I seem to remember you'd just got your other rig..... But that you really liked the 3400! Hope it all works well for you.

Montanowner,
Glad your folks got the furnace going. That's really important. :-)
Hopefully they'll eventually get the windows fixed correctly too.

Good luck.

HamRad

[sreigle]

Hi Jim and Freddie. Glad to hear things are finally moving along. We hope to get to see your new home one of these days. If it's anything close to the one in Pierre it will be gorgeous.

Rick and Mary, congrats on the new 3400! We sure like that model, too. Vicki and I mentioned the other day we'd not seen a post from you two in a long time. Glad to see you're back!

Montanaowner, you are surely going through a passel of problems. If these things ever get fixed, you can hopefully figure you got your entire share of problems out of the way and can concentrate on enjoying the Montana.

[Montana_3583]

quote:Montanaowner, you are surely going through a passel of problems. If these things ever get fixed, you can hopefully figure you got your entire share of problems out of the way and can concentrate on enjoying the Montana.

My dad was telling me last night that when the furnace was replaced the keystone service guy doing it told him it had not been bolted down correctly. There are four bolts that hold it down and only one of them had been put in. I am begining to think keystone is manned by a bunch of yahoo's. Most of the little problems I have not mentioned that were taken care of by the dealer were simply sloppy work i.e. molding not put on right and such.

My mother loves the layout and the furnishings and so on but I am pretty sure no matter how it turns out they will never own another keystone product.

[richfaa]

Do you think that these problems are a result of the drug problems at keystone.never heard what plant for sure had the problem but it may have been widespread.Hope things will improve..don't need those kind of problems...

[CountryGuy]

I thought it was the Lardo plant, but, maybe I remember wrong???