Packing to reduce pin weight on TV

[Phil805]

TV 2010 F-250 SD 6.4 diesel, GVWR 10,000 LBS
5ver 2011 Montana High Country 323 RL. Total weigh 9893 lbs, with pin
weigh coming in at 2153 the way it is packed. No food, no adult beverages, or clothing.

Question, by filling 64 gals fresh water tank located at rear of trailer, will this help reduce pin weight. If so would it be pound for pound.

[H. John Kohl]

The fulcrum effect says yes it should lower the pin weight but does increase the trailer weight.
My bigger concern is the extra stress you put on the mounting of the holding tank. It is in the rear of the trailer and has more bounce movement back there again from fulcrum effect and being loaded it is a lot of weight.
Other members have commented that the mounting for holding tanks is minimal and there are no understarps helping to hold it in place.
Also you have increased the combined gross vehicle weight of your truck and trailer by over 480 pounds.

[Art-n-Marge]

Nothing wrong with the weight for the trailer since the pin weight is almost 22% of the trailer weight of 9863. Residential Fifth wheel trailers allow as much as 25%.

Where are you getting the numbers for the trailer? Making anything heavier is generally not a good idea at any time and adding almost 500 lbs in the rear of the trailer might be like trying to douse fire with "wet" lighter fluid.

You'll also need to know what your truck weighs when it's all loaded with cargo, passengers and the hitch hardware before you add 2135 lbs on the rear end.

I have an F-250 and my trailer weighed 13,500 lbs and I ended up putting the F-350 leaf springs and larger wheels and tires to gain compliance. I did everything but get the truck re-certified (new VIN and stickers), so I'm now legal (keep all the paperwork), but only for my personal usage. For example, I cannot use my truck to tow another trailer for commercial reasons.

Before I recommend this, we need more information about the source of your numbers (GTW and PW). If you are going by the shipping weight and published pin weight, I'm afraid you are definitely suspect because these are NOT the numbers to go by. (Sales people use these to get the trailer sold to unknowing customers). You MUST use the GTWR and calculate 18% to 25% as the potential weight of the rig. This is where unknowing customers get burned BAD. None of this includes adding water anywhere for weight management.

[Phil805]

I under stand that this add to GCWR, but I guess what im looking for is the lesser of two evils. Problem is 680lbs over GVWR Under everywhere elese. Here are some real world number.

TV rated @10,000 - Actual weight W/O trailer 8520 W/ Trailer 10,680

F/axle rated @5600- Actual weight W/o trailer 5180 W/ trailer 5090
R/axle rated @6100- Actual weight W/O trailer 3340 W/ trailer 5590
Trailer axles weight in at 7740 for a GCVR of 18,420 TV rated @23000

All autual weight numbers are from cat scale.

[pineranch]

Phil,
If I had those numbers I would still be driving my F-250 and feeling real good about it. My GCWR came in a 23960 and my 250 pulled it just fine. Liability is another matter, I'm too old to lose my stuff to a lawyer and client.
Mike

[Phil805]

Yea liability is a concern. But my biggest worry is being close to limits of truck. Sad thing, this is all my fault for not checking on GVWR before buying truck. We had a 2008 gasser, wanted to move up to 5ver from 26' TT. Talked DW into trading gasser in (BTW WAS PAY OFF)for deisel, for heaver 5ver. Had so much more towing cap. just assume it had more payload. surprise, surprise what DA I WAS. Now IM
trying for F-350 DWR. DW says not happens, better figure out how to reslove.

[Lee F.]

Phil,
When I had my truck weighed at the rally I found my numbers were like yours. The weights for my tires and axels were well below the listed limits but my GVWR was 825# over my 10,000# rating. I went to my Ford dealer and was told that the 10,000# GVWR is just the weight I'm registered to carry. Usually this is done for insurance and/or legal reasons and in my case had no real relationship to what the truck was capable of carrying. The way my truck was built I could actually carry closer to 12,000#. My axels are actually my weakest link. I have a 6100# rear and 6,000# front. The actual loaded weight is 5,575# on the rear and 5,250# on the front. My tires are E rated for 3640# and my springs and shocks are the same as a one ton because of the Camper and snowplow packages I had added. Basically I was told not to worry about it, it's only an arbitrary number.

[bncinwv]

With regards to your original question, it will not be a pound for pound transfer. Without getting into complicated math, the weight transfer will be proportional to the distance from the pin to the center of the axles versus the distance from the center of the axles to the center of the fresh water tank. For simple math, if it is 20 feet from the pin to the axles and 10 feet from the axles to the fresh water tank, the weight transfer would be approximately half.
Bingo

[Phil P]

Hi

I am having a problem with your weight figures.

The fifth wheel hitch when properly installed locates the pin approximately 6 inches forward of the rear axel.

The front axel should go higher in weight as you load the fifth wheel hitch. Your figures show your front axel getting less in weight when you load the fifth wheel hitch.

The fifth wheel hitch in our TV is mounted exactly where the TV manufacturer specifies.

We load the basement heaver compared to most fifth wheel travel trailers. When I reach the maximum pin weight as specified by the TV manufacturer I reach the maximum front axel rating while being several hundred pounds lighter than the rear axel rating.

The TV manufacturer says this is designed this way because they also provide for the bumper pull loading which will cause the opposite weights. With a bumper pull the rear axel will reach its maximum rating while the front axel gets light. The bumper tow rating is also less than the fifth wheel tow rating but the GCW rating remains the same.

When we are loaded for our long trips were are with in 50 lbs of the front axel weight rating but 500 lbs below the GCW rating. We operate with the rear mounted potable water tank full. We now have 30,000 miles on the trailer and the water tank is still holding in its mounts OK. However the way it is mounted I will expect the tank flanges to fail in the next year or so. Probably more because of the deterioration of the plastic from aging more so than from the weight.

Phil P

[Wiarton William]

I at one time was confident that my weights were ok, I had it scaled ..I tried to remember and only got myself confused..so all I can say is... I have the F350 S/D 6.0 SRW.. and a 2008 305RLT (34ft 3slide) Mountaineer..we dont load it up and never travel with anything in the tanks..and the truck is licenced for 10000 lbs.. I know I am way under the combined weights but after that its a blank..I wish I had never read the post.. now I am going to worry wort about this all the way to texas..

[mlh]

The 2008 F250 F350 SRW and F350 DRW with 3.73 and 4.10 rear end all have a tow rating of 15200 pounds. Maxim payload for the F250 with 172 wheelbase is 2280 pounds the F350 SRW it is 3640 pounds for the F350 DRW it is 4830 pounds. I would think all of these ratings on your 2010 are nearly the same, since the truck is the same. If you were to up grade the rear springs to the F350 SRW springs you would in effect up grade the payload of your truck to 3640 pounds. The only difference in your truck and the F350 SRW is the rear wheel springs and of course the F350 decals. This would be a fairly cheap up grade.
Lynwood

[dieselguy]

Quote ... "The fifth wheel hitch when properly installed locates the pin approximately 6 inches forward of the rear axel."
This figure was arrived at from where?

[Phil P]

Hi

The 6 inches is an estimate. The dealer procured the information for us from GM. I am presently out of town and unable to get to the E-Mail from GM engineers that gave us the figure. The pin location is difinatly in front of the rear axel. As well the hitch installer when I ask about the location had paperwork from the hitch manufacturer that agreed with the information I had from GM.

In addition to this if you have a chance to look at a single axel semi tractor you will find the fifth wheel slightly in front of the rear axel.

My wife and I spent months researching the trailer and TV capacities. We purchased the Silverado 3500 DRW because in 2009 it had the highest GCW rating of all of the light duty trucks and GM was very forthcoming with the information to configure the vehicle for maximum usage (this may also have been the dealer Ford and Dodge dealers had no clue as how to get the information requested). At that time we would have to go to the medium duty truck (450 or 4500) to get a higher GCW rating and she didn’t want to drive that big a truck.

Phil P

[Delaine and Lindy]

Moving king pin forward ?? I think will add weight to the front axle. I have forgotten how many 5th wheel hitches I have had installed by many different installers and every 5th wheel hitch has been about center of the rear axle. However if it works for you its fine with me. For those of us who have driven OTR Trucks with sliding 5th wheel hitches or sliding rear axles on the Trailer you are well aware of what happens to the weight distribution when sliding the 5th wheel hitch or sliding the trailer axles, forward or to the rear. Just moving 1 hole forward or to the rear will transfer the weight to the front or rear. Oh well we learn everyday. Happy Trails.....

[bncinwv]

I agree that placement of the hitch six inch behind the axles sounds excessive. Most of the specifications that I have seen range from over the axle to 4 inches (corrected on edit in front of the axles towards the truck cab. Different trucks and different beds have different specifications, I don't believe there is a standard distance. For example, here is a link to the installation of the standard Reese hitch rail kit:

Reese Rail Kit Installation

Bingo

[dieselguy]

As mentioned earlier ... "go with what works for you". I'll stick with directly over the rear axle or maybe 1" forward ... if you install the bed rails per the dimensions on the instructions for trucks of say the past 10 years ... that's where the center of the king pin comes out to be.

[pineranch]

Here's Pullrite's instruction;
http://www.pullrite.com/pdfs/4426.pdf

Note the 1/2" fwd of axle.
Mike

[Phil P]

Hi Bingo

If you look thru the Rees instructions you will find a number of the GM trucks showing 3 ½ inches in front of the rear axel. I don’t remember the exact number from GM but the installation documents with the hitch (I also cant remember the name of the hitch) agreed with the information from GM. As I said I guessed at 6 inches it may well be 3 ½ or 4 inches. I have been staying in motels for a few days while doing facility audits and don’t have access to the data GM gave me.

As some one else said the big rigs have sliding fifth wheel hitches and sliding trailer axels. It doesn’t take much to change the weight on your axels. Now if you get involved in a single axel tractor-trailer it will not have a sliding fifth wheel and the fifth wheel will be in front of the rear axel. In Florida that location is critical because you are allowed 20,000 lbs on each DW axel and the location for the single axel tractor is located so you have 20,000 on the tractor drive axel 20,000 on each trailer axel and 13,280 on the front axel for a total of 73,280 lbs fully loaded. The fifth wheel will be just forward of the rear axel and this distance will be different for a long frame tractor than it is for a short frame tractor This is not allowed in Georgia.

Phil P

[Ozz]

Ya gotta love a good weight thread...

[Art-n-Marge]

Phil, I had the exact problem you describe. Prepare for a long story!

First, realize that the weight ratings at any particular point is the maximum for that point. This means that as that point reaches its maximum this means somewhere else it need to get lighter to keep another point under its maximum. This is the problem you are having. The numbers look good at some places (i.e. axles) and not so good in another (GVWR).

Here's what to do....

You need to look at the rear axle of your F-250 and compare it to the same F-350 model year and look for (two?) differences. Between these two trucks year to year the two differences as far as a stock truck from Ford are 1. An extra overload spring with brackets and hardware that only gets used if the rear axle load is heavy enough that when you bounce down the road they provide the extra strength. For example, when the trailer is sitting on the rear axle, there is no contact, however, there are rub marks on the overload springs that tells me that when I'm driving the bouncing of things causes the overload springs to DO THEIR job. Without them, you are risking some breakage. And 2.) is the size of the wheels and tires. In 2006, a stock F-250 came with 17" wheels and tires. An F-350 came with 18" wheels and tires because this size provided the extra weight rating for the more capable F-350. The 17" wheels and tires don't have enough weight rating while 18" is good. I suppose 19" or 20" wheels might also help since I have seen these on many Fords.

Now here comes the tricky part! Ford, for whatever reason may install the extra overload spring even on a truck with the F-250 emblems and VIN. This means that for this truck owner they pay registration for a truck with the lesser ratings but don't get to claim they have an F-350. I have seen this personally on another owner's truck! The other thing that can happen is that with a new owner buys an F-250 they might upgrade the tires and wheels, just because they like bigger tires. The owner I was telling you about was stunned when he found between his and my truck he had an extra overload spring. I was curious too until I talked to a Ford guy and admitted that Ford will sometimes do that for unknown reasons. The other owner was then very delighted when we checked his tires and he had the larger 18" wheels. He said that he got them from a relative who had purchased an F-350 and removed these to give to him so the relative could put some huge wheels and tires to further customize his truck (some money may have changed hands, but that's not important except it's way cheaper than buying new wheels from Ford).

First, you need to check if your Ford has been gifted with the extra hardware and/or wheels. This means you can support the F-350 weight ratings without doing anything further. If you already have wheels and tires with over 3,500lb ratings, then half the battle is won. Then check if the suspension has the extra leaf springs compared to the same model year as you. If the springs are the same, then you already have the F-350 spring set and the battle is fully won.

If you do not have either you can do what I did. Get the extra overload leaf springs from Ford (I installed them myself). I stuck with "genuine Ford parts" because not all aftermarket meet the requirements. Then look for and purchase 18" "takeoffs". These are wheels that have been taken off a truck who has had their wheels upgraded to a different size and now the wheels that were "taken off" are now available for sale. Nothing wrong with takeoff wheels unless they were removed because they were broken. Of course, you'll need to change out the spare wheel too, then buy 5 new tires for all around including the spare and make sure the tires are rated for a minimum of 3,500 lbs. I bought Michelins rated for over 3,600 lbs.

Legally, this is the only way to increase the GVWR and the axle ratings for your F-250 into an F-350. Any other aftermarket solution might not cut it (as I learned about air bags). You will also be limited to using the truck for PERSONAL USE only. For example, you won't be able to tow others for commercial reasons. If you want to go this extra step you must RECERTIFY your truck. This requires you to take documentation for all you've done to an independent company and if they certify that you have done all the right things with all the right stuff, then they will assign you a new VIN, sticker and you can then register your truck as an F-350!

It can be done. And I use the air bags to raise the rear end when loaded to "fix the headlight aim". I have a slideshow I had posted of the spring work from some time ago. There have also been others that have done this and not just in this forum. This cannot always be done, but for a 2006 to go from an F-250 to an F-350 it's possible. Hopefully, your model truck is the same.

Now that I've done this I am not only comfortable with towing my Monty, I know I am compliant. Prior to this I would have been liable and considered neglectful in the event of an accident involving others (your own insurance company may not cover you in the event you are found to be overweight, then any financial obligation or settlement will be on you exclusively).

Whew, been there done that and didn't forget too much. Now to make Ozz squirm I'm gonna take him to lunch for some "Dim Sum".