Yet another Autoformer/ Surge Protection? - Montana Owners Club

Ozzie · 01-13-2008, 04:05 AM

Admittedly, this is the weakspot in my setup. I have a less expensive surge protection device (just enough to avoid a serious mishap), and am looking to do it right this year.
Looking at the autoformer type products, I see they do have some surge protection and voltage cutoffs, but see nothing as far as resetting the supply to the RV in case of a voltage cutoff. These units are pricey, you would think they have an all in one solution.
The way I see it, you need something like a surgeguard unit for protection and resetting, and then the autoformer type unit for line conditioning.

Am I missing something here? Does anyone offer the all in one solution?

richfaa · 01-13-2008, 04:34 AM

Take a look at this http://www.viprv.com/ems/ems.html

We also have the autoformer and are not convinced it was a wise purchase. We only used it twice and never since we purchased the surge protector.

The above surge protector (it is pricey) does not raise or lower the voltage as the auto former does but does shut down the power at the same limits and will reset when it is safe to do so.. It also monitors many other parameters and will shut down in the event of error. Take a good look at both units and decide which is best for you..I see no advantage to having both. In one case a power surge that caused damamge to other un protected campers and would have , no doubt, blown the auto former.

Ozzie · 01-13-2008, 04:49 AM

I can't tell you how many times I've looked at that progressive unit...it is a little more money than the surge guard by about 40 bucks, but the surge guard has a higher joules rating. A person usually gets what they pay for, but I'm no elect. guru and don't know if it's better.
I do feel protection is more important than line conditioning, and resetting the line for power while not at the site is paramount (pets and air conditioning).

If I was to do the progressive/surge guard unit without a conditioning device, I would want it inside out of site and protected. If I was to use a conditioner, I would want the progressive/ surge guard at the pole to protect the conditioner.

All things considered for us, we only use 30 Amps, so our needs would be less than you folks with the 50 Amp. If so many are feeling the conditioners aren't worth the money, it would be more so with us.

sreigle · 01-13-2008, 05:07 AM

Ozzie, I think you are right. If the autoformer is taken out by a surge you have to return it to the factory for repair or replacement. My understanding is it is free. However, I'd have to pay shipping (and they're heavy) to get it to the factory. And be without the autoformer during the repair. Many people with autoformers combine them with good surge protection. I do not but have probably been lucky. One of these days I'll get smart and get the protection.

Ozzie · 01-13-2008, 05:25 AM

Thanks Steve...I personally would want to protect the more expensive unit myself. Sacrificing it rather than protecting it just doesn't seem right. I've read that argument before about which one goes first and I guess that it just makes more sense to this thick head.

It sounds to me like the conditioner is going back to the backburner where it's been for some time. I will be getting the surge unit of some sort, I just need to sort if I want to hard wire inside, or use it at the pole and just plug it in.

LOL...I'm almost sorry I open this topic back up again...no really clear answers.

richfaa · 01-13-2008, 06:03 AM

Lots to think about, The best iv'e seen the auto former is at Teeety's at 528.88 Plus shipping and the PT 50c at 399.99 so that is a lot of bucks for both.We do have both and have only seen the need for the auto former twice.(very low voltage at the pole) Of course these Montana's are not cheap so were do you set the limit to protect them.

Ozzie · 01-13-2008, 06:27 AM

yupper...Tweety's seems to be the best price I've found too...I gave that link to my brother a while back as he's looking too.

At least a good surge protection unit will protect the rv and keep power to it. If the power is out of range, it usually doesn't last long enough to be a real issue.

I had been in contact with someone that sold those autoformers last year, and he told me a new unit was coming out that was better than what is available now. I haven't heard anything yet.

OntMont · 01-13-2008, 06:54 AM

One thing that I did read somewhere, is that external surge protection is fine so far as it goes, but many surges/spikes originate inside the RV. For this reason, even if you have external surge protection, you should still protect sensitive electronics with a good surge protector on the individual circuit.

ols1932 · 01-13-2008, 12:38 PM

You don't really need an autoformer if you are connected to reliable power. It's only when you are connected to power that drops below about 108 volts when loaded that the autoformer comes in handy. As I previously posted, I only use mine in those kinds of cases. Sure, they're expensive but you have to be aware of why you're using it. I use a Surge Guard all the time whether connected to 20-, 30- or 50-amp power.

Orv

sreigle · 01-14-2008, 04:08 PM

Orv, we've found many places where the power is not reliable and that's why I nearly (note the nearly) always connect our autoformer. I've seen numerous times when the voltage level checks fine when we're connecting but sometime later in the day or week the power drops. I suppose maybe during the heat of the day when everyone's running the AC, etc. So rather than have to keep an eye on the voltage I just connect the autformer and forget about it. I have noticed the lights showing it is boosting several times.

Ozzie · 01-14-2008, 04:12 PM

This is very true Steve...when people get up in the morning and start firing up coffee makers and toasters you can just watch your voltmeter drop.

rogue · 01-14-2008, 05:30 PM

Ozzie, As I understand it, and I could be wrong, and believe the kind people here will correct me.
The Auto Former will allow you to compensate when the voltage goes down, there by allowing you to continue to operate your electronics in a safe manner. The EMS Serge Protector unit will shut off the power when the voltage goes down to the specific level. Now I do not know of any other specific reason for having a Auto Former, and maybe folks can help enlighten me. If I want to protect my Montana from surges, mis-wired campgrounds, and potential damaging low or high voltage, the Surge Protector will do that, as long as I understand my power will be shut off to the whole montana until it is back within the EMS surge protector specifications. With the Auto Former front end you raise low voltage to an acceptable level and keep the power on in most cases. But the Auto Former could be sacraficed with external Surges.
I have the PT 50C EMS Surge Protector purchased it at CD RV Parts for $345.84(included shipping cost)
http://www.rvpartscenter.com/FindaPr...tector&x=0&y=0

richfaa · 01-15-2008, 01:44 AM

The above is a good and understandable description of what the two units do. They are both very good units and both do exactly what they are designed to do. Here is a link to the Auto former that is interesting reading http://www.autoformers.com/?id=why&loc=inc
I was not exactly clear on when the autoformer boosted. Although it has a operating range of @ 95 to 125 Volts it will begin to boost at @ 116 volts providing a constant voltage/amps to the camper. Again how you use the camper will have a lot to do with which unit you buy or even both of them. I do have both but purchased the auto former before I had a in depth understanding of how it worked. In our case and considering how we use the camper the EMS PT-50 was the better choice for us.

8.1al · 01-15-2008, 11:08 PM

Sometimes you will run into a situation where the park power is continually low. If you have just the EMS you have 2 choices, unplug it or have no power. This is where the autoformer shines. If you have both, the EMS needs to be AFTER the Autoformer or it will shut down because of low power before the Autoformer can boost. With this arrangement you surge protection for the trailer but not the Autoformer. When using this arrangement I was having frequent high voltage shutoff by the EMS, so much so that I sent it back in to be tested. I was later told by EMS and the gentleman I purchased the EMS from that even when the voltage is normal the Autoformer is boosting 2% and was the cause of the high voltage, so now I normally just use the EMS and if I encounter longterm low voltage the Autoformer comes out. One note on the EMS. If the portable unit gets hit with a surge it must be sent in for repair while the hardwired one has a replaceable card, or at least used to.

Ozzie · 01-16-2008, 01:54 AM

Thanks for that Charlie...now I remember the autoformer needs to be first. I just don't care to leave a piece of equipment that expensive as a sacrificial lamb. How about having just a surge protector without the voltage cutoffs at the pedestal? This will absorb a spike eliminating potential damage to the autoformer?
At that point I'm not sure how useful an additional surge protector with the cutoffs would be.

ols1932 · 01-16-2008, 02:49 AM

Ozzie,
I believe that when you really think about it you want the voltage cutoff points. You certainly don't want voltage to go too high, nor do you want it to go too low without cutting off. For example, if you just have the surge protection, what happens if the voltage goes too high or too low? Something will have to give. As you know from my previous posts, I'm a believer in surge protection with the high and low cutoff points.

Orv

Waynem · 01-16-2008, 03:28 AM

If you are using the 50amp portable autotransformer, can you use the 30amp pigtail with it?

Mrs. CountryGuy · 01-16-2008, 03:54 AM

Wayne,

Yes, Al and I frequently only use the 30 AMP and our 50 AMP autoformer is built in.

bncinwv · 01-16-2008, 05:15 AM

After following this and other threads, it reminds me where someone (crs syndrome - sorry) posted that an alternative would be one of the cheap ($100.00) surge protectors to protect the autoformer in addition to the EMS after the autoformer. Sounds like an extra $100 but it is an alternative to autoformer replacement after a peak surge that takes it out. To clarify (and I am strongly considering this) a cheap surge protector on the pedestal, then the autoformer, then finally the ems surge protector with auto cutoff features. Comments???
Bingo

8.1al · 01-16-2008, 10:24 AM

Bingo,
You are right, that would be the optimum setup. A good surge protecter before the Autoformer would be a good idea. The cost of shipping the Autoformer back and repairs would pay for it. I feel a little anal having all that stuff hanging from the power pedestal but in my opinion that is the only way to protect your rig.

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