Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > GENERAL DISCUSSIONS > General Discussions about our Montanas
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-22-2020, 04:57 PM   #1
ForBruce
Montana Fan
 
ForBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
BLACK TANK SENSORS working again -Here's how

My Background--30 years commercial detergent manufacturing and sales , including commercial dish washing and laundry machines.


My sensors for the black tank ,as you are all aware suck...When the tank was empty they ALL still read FULL.

Here's what i did ....

For the last 3 Tank Dumps i added besides the regular toilet tabs...about
1/2 cup of Tide High Efficiency Laundry Detergent . (Only cause my commercial detergent was unavailable on my trip )

Then before traveling to my next stop (about 5 hours).
1....added 1 1/2 minutes of Flush Water to my Closed Black Tank
2....added 1 regular toilet tab
3...added 3/4 cup tide HE-detergent.

DO NOT ADD ANY DETERGENT THAT IS NOT BRANDED "HE" meaning high efficiency .

The detergents are really NOT high efficiency .

They are made specifically for side loading laundry machines that would normally generate lots of suds. These detergents are LOW SUDS and will not foam in the tank.

So as you drive and splash the water the "SURFACTANT" in the laundry detergent will penetrate the SCUM on the sensors and clean them up.

The role of a Surfactant is to reduce the surface tension of water so it will penetrate surfaces that hold the water back...

Example:.... When it rains..the water bubbles up on the hood of your car. Add a tiny bit of surfactant and the water's reduced surface tension will cause it to flatten out and sheet off the car .

The laundry detergent is slightly "alkaline" and that also helps brake down the poop. To boost the alkalinity you could add 1/4 cup of Electric dish washing detergent (also low sudsing )
Attached Images
 
ForBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2020, 05:42 PM   #2
scottz
Site Team
 
scottz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Colorado Rockies
Posts: 1,910
M.O.C. #19755
Interesting information, thank you. I didn't know all this, but I have always put some laundry detergent in the tank along with water as we begin the last leg of a trip. When we get home, dump and flush thoroughly. I still don't trust the sensors or even look at them; I do this to make the dumping process work better.
__________________
Scott & Alta
2017 Montana 3160RL, Legacy, Onan 5.5Kw, Solar
2022 F-450 Lariat Ultimate
scottz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2020, 05:55 PM   #3
ForBruce
Montana Fan
 
ForBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottz View Post
Interesting information, thank you. I didn't know all this, but I have always put some laundry detergent in the tank along with water as we begin the last leg of a trip. When we get home, dump and flush thoroughly. I still don't trust the sensors or even look at them; I do this to make the dumping process work better.
Do Not use regular sudsing detergent.

As suds is generated it has a water content. The more suds the more water is used up to make suds.. Hence you will loose some splashing and scrubbing action as the water is tied up to make suds.

Also any remaining water will be "CUSHIONED" by the suds


QUICK FOOT NOTE..most of the time i just LISTEN to the sound of the toilet flush to tell when the tank is full..but now who knows with the lights working.
ForBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2020, 06:17 PM   #4
Mikendebbie
Montana Master
 
Mikendebbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 2,389
M.O.C. #21044
Great info - thanks.
What is your “toilet tab”? Is that just a tank deodorizer? Does a different tank deodorizer affect your recipe (lots of different tank treatment option out there)

Also - somewhere in the past I came across a similar thread on some forum where the guy suggested using Calgon fabric softener/water softener. Would like your take on that idea. I have added Calgon a few times in the past but certainly not regularly. I never noticed any difference for my tank sensors.
__________________
MikenDebbie Aggie ‘77 in the sticks near Austin TX
2019 Chevy 3500 High Country DRW
2018 Montana 3921FB
Aussie Gus + Texas Heeler Jimmy
Mikendebbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2020, 09:33 PM   #5
ForBruce
Montana Fan
 
ForBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikendebbie View Post
Great info - thanks.
What is your “toilet tab”? Is that just a tank deodorizer? Does a different tank deodorizer affect your recipe (lots of different tank treatment option out there)

Also - somewhere in the past I came across a similar thread on some forum where the guy suggested using Calgon fabric softener/water softener. Would like your take on that idea. I have added Calgon a few times in the past but certainly not regularly. I never noticed any difference for my tank sensors.
the tab is basically just a deodorizer. Most of the time an enzyme or bacteria will not have enough time to work properly.

There was a hotel in New York City that had a "GREASE / crap" trap that was about 10 foot by 10 foot and about 8 foot deep. I was involved in the project.

We sprayed a "EATING" bacteria to reduce the scum. But after 3 days a lot of buildup was still there.... until we found a way to stir the mixture every 4 hours.

When i get I get a chance i will introduce a high akalinity into the tank to speed up the process..but you still need movement to slap the water against the soil.

A fabric softener (like Calgon) imparts a slightly oily substance into the fabric to give it a soft feel..like towels at a pool club. But at the same time this tends to WATERPROOF the fabric making it harder to clean the next time around.

There is enough oils in poop without Introducing more into the tank
ForBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2020, 06:34 PM   #6
scottz
Site Team
 
scottz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Colorado Rockies
Posts: 1,910
M.O.C. #19755
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForBruce View Post
Do Not use regular sudsing detergent.

As suds is generated it has a water content. The more suds the more water is used up to make suds.. Hence you will loose some splashing and scrubbing action as the water is tied up to make suds.

Also any remaining water will be "CUSHIONED" by the suds


QUICK FOOT NOTE..most of the time i just LISTEN to the sound of the toilet flush to tell when the tank is full..but now who knows with the lights working.
All we use is HE detergent; at home and take it with us on the road.
__________________
Scott & Alta
2017 Montana 3160RL, Legacy, Onan 5.5Kw, Solar
2022 F-450 Lariat Ultimate
scottz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2020, 09:36 PM   #7
mtlakejim
Montana Master
 
mtlakejim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bee Branch
Posts: 2,620
M.O.C. #20693
ForBruce,
Fellow Chemist here. I spent 40 years in the oilfield chemical business (last 10 as the customer). Sold a LOT of surfactants in that time. The foaming action recommendations make a lot of sense to me. Nice write up. I would suggest some inhibited HCL added to the mix but that's not something the average person could get hold of.
__________________
James & Irene Wilson
Bee Branch, AR.
2017 Ram 1 ton diesel duallyCrew Cab/Long Bed
2018 Montana High Country 381TH Garage Full of Toys
mtlakejim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2020, 07:24 PM   #8
ForBruce
Montana Fan
 
ForBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtlakejim View Post
ForBruce,
Fellow Chemist here. I spent 40 years in the oilfield chemical business (last 10 as the customer). Sold a LOT of surfactants in that time. The foaming action recommendations make a lot of sense to me. Nice write up. I would suggest some inhibited HCL added to the mix but that's not something the average person could get hold of.
unfortunately HCL is acid in nature ...and since this soil (poop) is organic in nature (was once living or came from a live person)
you will need something akaline that has a surfactant and a anti-foam agent to surpress the suds.

Acid based products will work better on non-organic soils . Rocks, copper , minerals , etc
ForBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2020, 09:01 AM   #9
mtlakejim
Montana Master
 
mtlakejim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bee Branch
Posts: 2,620
M.O.C. #20693
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForBruce View Post
unfortunately HCL is acid in nature ...and since this soil (poop) is organic in nature (was once living or came from a live person)
you will need something akaline that has a surfactant and a anti-foam agent to surpress the suds.

Acid based products will work better on non-organic soils . Rocks, copper , minerals , etc
I was thinking of the acid more for CaCO3 scale deposition on the sensors IF the water had high Calcium content. Fairly common to find that in many areas. It is the most common mineral scale that creates white deposition in water systems (or bathtubs). I am not suggesting using the acid treatment every time you dump only once a year or so depending on how hard your water is. But you would have to know what your doing to use it so not really practical for most folks.

Methanol works well as a cheap defoamer. Commercial defoamers are usually a bit pricy Silicon suspensions.
__________________
James & Irene Wilson
Bee Branch, AR.
2017 Ram 1 ton diesel duallyCrew Cab/Long Bed
2018 Montana High Country 381TH Garage Full of Toys
mtlakejim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 03:04 PM   #10
ForBruce
Montana Fan
 
ForBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtlakejim View Post
I was thinking of the acid more for CaCO3 scale deposition on the sensors IF the water had high Calcium content. Fairly common to find that in many areas. It is the most common mineral scale that creates white deposition in water systems (or bathtubs). I am not suggesting using the acid treatment every time you dump only once a year or so depending on how hard your water is. But you would have to know what your doing to use it so not really practical for most folks.

Methanol works well as a cheap defoamer. Commercial defoamers are usually a bit pricy Silicon suspensions.
Phosphoric acid with very hot water will remove the calcium deposits....but in cold water takes forever.....problem is you don't know what anyone has in their tank to begin with....like bleach which will make poison gas..... and don't know what formaldahyde and acid will do
ForBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 07:17 PM   #11
Mikendebbie
Montana Master
 
Mikendebbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 2,389
M.O.C. #21044
What if you dumped a gallon of white vinegar into the tank and let it slosh around during travel. That might help loosen some calcium scale - wouldn’t it?
__________________
MikenDebbie Aggie ‘77 in the sticks near Austin TX
2019 Chevy 3500 High Country DRW
2018 Montana 3921FB
Aussie Gus + Texas Heeler Jimmy
Mikendebbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 03:01 PM   #12
ForBruce
Montana Fan
 
ForBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
MTLAKEJIM------ little off topic

Have been formulating A non-streeking , non-sun glaring , non-hazing car/truck windshield cleaner and surfactant is one of the items used. THe one iam using is somewhat pricey..any ideas
ForBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2020, 03:12 PM   #13
skootter2
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Davison
Posts: 1
M.O.C. #14599
Just use Happy Campers Organic RV Holding Tank Treatment and you won't have sensor or dumping issues. Also makes dumping nearly scentless.

https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Campers...NsaWNrPXRydWU=
skootter2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2020, 03:02 PM   #14
Bro. Paul
Established Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: La Grange
Posts: 27
M.O.C. #24531
Quote:
Originally Posted by skootter2 View Post
Just use Happy Campers Organic RV Holding Tank Treatment and you won't have sensor or dumping issues. Also makes dumping nearly scentless.

https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Campers...NsaWNrPXRydWU=
Anyone know the average size of the black water tank? I have a 2019 3790RD and I'm not sure how many Gals it holds.
Bro. Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2020, 03:13 PM   #15
RMcNeal
Montana Master
 
RMcNeal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 2,113
M.O.C. #25165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Paul View Post
Anyone know the average size of the black water tank? I have a 2019 3790RD and I'm not sure how many Gals it holds.
I have a 2019 3791RD, same unit with residential fridge.Bkack water is 49 gallons and grey is 88 gallons, 2 @ 44 gallons each. Fresh is 66 gallons which includes 12 for water heater and a couple more for pipes. Probably around 50- 54 gallon tank. I got specs on Keystone website.
Just curious, did you put on a washer/dryer? I'm wondering where the washer drain is plumbed. I've been told it could be any of the three tanks, or straight out the sewer outlet. I figure since yours is the same year as mine it might be the same.
RMcNeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2020, 03:45 PM   #16
Bro. Paul
Established Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: La Grange
Posts: 27
M.O.C. #24531
Thanks for the reply. Good info. We have not put in the washer dryer yet though seriously considering it. Not sure where that water would drain but I suspect into the main gray water tank. We love our 3790 how about you? We have had a couple issues.
Bro. Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2020, 04:04 PM   #17
Carl n Susan
Site Team
 
Carl n Susan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Carmichael - CA
Posts: 7,323
M.O.C. #4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMcNeal View Post
I have a 2019 3791RD, same unit with residential fridge.Bkack water is 49 gallons and grey is 88 gallons, 2 @ 44 gallons each.
I believe the total grey capacity is 88 gallons. But I don't believe the two tanks have equal capacity. The shower tank sits next to the black tank and is identical in dimensions. The replacements for each is the same part. The galley tank is located above the axles, in the non-dropped frame area, and likely has less depth than the other tanks. I conclude the shower tanks is 49 gallons and the galley tank is 39 gallons. I haven't had to replace the galley tank so I don't know for sure.
__________________
Carl (n Susan)
There is more to life than fuel mileage.
2012 Montana 3700RL Big Sky Package towed by a 2015 Ford F350 6.7L PSD 4WD CC LWB

Carl n Susan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2020, 04:12 PM   #18
Schautzie
Montana Fan
 
Schautzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mt. Vernon
Posts: 252
M.O.C. #6179
Took a screen shot of your information for future use! Thanks for posting!!!
__________________
Donna Ziegler| Dennis(DH) |Lizzie|Kimber|Remy|Sasha (DFB)
2011 Montana 3400RL|2020 RAM 3500 4X4 6.7 Cummins Turbo Diesel

Schautzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2020, 05:32 PM   #19
Cyride
Seasoned Camper
 
Cyride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Fort Dodge
Posts: 52
M.O.C. #22980
Thumbs up Only had the problem once.

The first time out in our 381th I ended up having all sensors reading full. I did some research and felt the problem was that I wasn't using the system properly. I now have a routine I follow and have not a problem since. 1st, I put 5 or 6 gallons of water in the tank before putting any solids in the black tank. I also make sure we are using plenty of water with every flush of the toilet. When I dump I run the black tank flush until the water runs clear. After dumping I put about 5 or 6 gallons of clean water back into the tank to slush around while going down the road. When I am close to home I dump again. To clean the sensors when I had the original problem I put about 8 gallons of water in the black tank, drove around and then dumped. No problems since. I also started to use a product called Happy Camper, seems to be doing a good job since I started using it. I strongly believe the most important step of black tank maintenance is to make sure you get plenty of water in the tank with the solids. I work in the pharmaceutical industry and have worked with water systems for use in the industry. I am very cautious about adding chemicals to any system. I would want to be careful with the PH of whatever I am dumping from my tanks into who ever's septic system I am dumping into so I do not cause problems in those systems. This is just how I have corrected the problem, everything good since.
__________________
2018 Ford F350 Diesel Dually 4x4
Cyride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2020, 05:40 PM   #20
ForBruce
Montana Fan
 
ForBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
the question comes---can you damage seals or blow the tank open if you fill the black tank with the FLUSHER while the drain valve is closed

Well if the hose can fill at about 5 gallons a minute and you keep the flusher on for 1 1/2 minutes you should have about 7 1/2 gallons of water in the black tank which normally can hold about 40 gallons...

You now have an AIR SPACE that the remaining 32 gallons of water would have take up. ( you have filled only 19% of capacity)

since air is easy to compress as compared to water ..in my humble opinion i don't think you come anywhere near causing damage

PER THE POST JUST ABOVE.....the only chemical i add extra is Laundry detergent ( no bleach) which will not damage a septic system
ForBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.