My opinion of Keystone

[SlickWillie]

I've never been able to understand why folks on here get their undies in such a wad when someone bad mouths Keystone. I could care less. They have never compensated me in any way to defend their products. I actually made a pretty good investment with them, and feel that entitles me to say what I like about their product. I'm sure all RV's are pretty much equal in quality....and it sucks.

And like I've said before, one shouldn't have to go to the rally and hang with the big dogs to get good service. Keystone should see to it that anyone with a franchise to sell their products is reputable....if not, pull the franchise. Of course they're not gonna do that, as it effects their bottom line.

I don't know that we'll ever buy another RV, but if we do, it may be Montana, or it may be another brand. I don't see where I should have any loyalty to someone I pay for something, unless they do enough to earn my loyalty. In reality, only my family fits that description at this point.

[Phil P]

Hi

I would suggest that the real problem is the integrity of the manufacturer. All manufacturers have production runs that go wrong. This is accepted throughout industries. The difference between manufacturers is how they handle what used to be refereed to as a “Friday” product.

So you list the manufacturers in a column contain products of the same cost bracket and start grading them by the reports obtained from the dissatisfied owners. Not by how many problems they have with the product but by the actions of the manufacturer when problems are reported.

If you review the post on this forum alone you find a very large disparity in how Keystone handles the problems they have created by using a very unorganized production system and unqualified workers.

By observation I have concluded that this is the major complaint form the members of this forum.

Phil P

[richfaa]

"If you review the post on this forum alone you find a very large disparity in how Keystone handles the problems they have created by using a very unorganized production system and unqualified workers.

How did you come to that conclusion?? What is the unorganized production system.....how did you know the workers were unqualified.

The production system is the same for all manufacturers and the workforce is the same.

Hang around with the "Big Dogs" who are these guys.???

[sreigle]

Our 2001 Montana had cable operated slides. Keystone moved away from that technology because the cable mechanisms are unreliable. Cables stretch. Cables break.

Our 2003 and 2007 have been pretty reliable as far as the slides go. We've had leaks but those can be fixed.

The electrically operated rack and pinion mechanisms are more expensive. It's of note that those are on the high dollar units, not in the price range of the Montana.

Sometimes we forget if we expect Rolls Royce quality we have to pay a Rolls Royce price.

As an aside, back in about 2005 or so we went to the Tampa RV Show where some of us Montana owners gathered. Vicki and I went inside a non-Montana (can't recall the brand) fifthwheel with MSRP of over $150,000 in 2005 dollars. We were stunned when Vicki opened a cabinet and the door came off in her hand.

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

"If you review the post on this forum alone you find a very large disparity in how Keystone handles the problems they have created by using a very unorganized production system and unqualified workers.

How did you come to that conclusion?? What is the unorganized production system.....how did you know the workers were unqualified.

The production system is the same for all manufacturers and the workforce is the same.

Hang around with the "Big Dogs" who are these guys.???

Rich, you know very well who the "big dogs" are. I didn't post the other things you asked about...know nothing about the production line other than what I've read from you guys that hang with the "big dogs"; but, a qualified labor force does not produce the low quality products we see in these RV's, and I'm not talking about just Keystone.

I don't post a whole lot on here any more....seems if you don't have a love relationship with Keystone, you ain't one of the good ole boys. Frankly speaking, I don't need Keystone any more. My unit is out of warranty (sigh of relief), so what the extended coverage takes care of I have a local service repair. What it doesn't cover, I will take care of myself. If the vendor that they used won't sell to me, I'll give my money to someone that will. JMHO

[simonsrf]

quote:Originally posted by SlickWillie

Rich, you know very well who the "big dogs" are. I didn't post the other things you asked about...know nothing about the production line other than what I've read from you guys that hang with the "big dogs"; but, a qualified labor force does not produce the low quality products we see in these RV's, and I'm not talking about just Keystone.

I don't post a whole lot on here any more....seems if you don't have a love relationship with Keystone, you ain't one of the good ole boys. Frankly speaking, I don't need Keystone any more. My unit is out of warranty (sigh of relief), so what the extended coverage takes care of I have a local service repair. What it doesn't cover, I will take care of myself. If the vendor that they used won't sell to me, I'll give my money to someone that will. JMHO

Thanks Will,
Common sense in this group won't go far; I know exactly what you are saying and agree!

There's one!

[ole dude]

HEAR HEAR

[arcateq]

You are spot on Will.

[richfaa]

The so called big "big dogs" are some of the Keystone/Montana management and sales team as well as the "big dog" vendors that provide seminars and sell us their products. Of course Montana reps are there.It is a Montana rally and we are maybe 4 miles from the plants. We provide them rational feedback on the good and bad of their products. Don't know how big of a dog a District sales manager is but some are there. We interact with the folks from the service center as well as customer service. Folks from Lippert, Dexter,and Mor Ryde are there. The general manager of Montana will make a appearance. MOC provides a service and many suggestions given by MOC members are seen in the products.

The workers across the industry build similar products.. Whatever Rv you switch to will be built by the same workforce using the same vendors and techniques. They will all be equally "unqualified"

Here are a group of Montana owners given the opportunity to interact and provide feedback on our Montana's at the highest levels and we are bad mouthed and called ...'Good ole boys" There needs to be a lot more of them..

I do not argue that the quality could be better if we are willing to pay the price.. There are some very high $$ brands out there and all you need is the $$ to purchase one.

[Phil P]

Hello ridhfaa

I don’t understand the “big dogs” remark????

All you have to do to find how disorganized the production system is call Keystone to find out where you cable “Loop back” is so you can install a satellite receiver (they said it wasn’t installed found it by accident in a place totally unusable) or where the check valve is that is supposed to be in the black tank wash line (missing on our unit) or where the suction breaker is in the black tank wash line (I can tell its there they just don’t know where) or where the wiring for you “generator ready” compartment goes. All of these questions went unanswered when I inquired about them as well as many others. I got excuses like the workers just put them wherever they think best. Make and model for microwave I was told the workers have free choice and they have no records to indicate what microwave was installed.

As for qualified workers all you have to do is look behind the basement wall and answer that question or watch the water run all over the bathroom floor because the shower enclosure wasn’t installed correctly, the basement fill with water because the waste pipes on the shower an sink drain were never glued, or the basement fill with water because the water service lines at the convenience center were only finger tight.

Now for the real kicker. The RVIA certified electrician that had move from the Keystone plant and went to work for the dealer I purchased from that didn’t know what a volt ohm meter was or how to use it. (He claimed to be RVIA certified but never produce a certificate the dealer did back up the claim he came from the Keystone plant)

I could go on about Keystones appointed dealer repair center. The fact that they had three service mangers during the time I was trying to get my unit up to standards during the warranty kind of says it all. All three quit. The service manger that really knew what he was doing and had management training quit after only 30 days. It looked like this one was really going to help me.

In spite of every thing all Keystone had to do was show a little integrity and you would not be hearing any of this from me.

Phil P

PS apparently you posted your last post while I was writing this. Thanks for the “big dogs” explanation.

[DQDick]

We looked at some of the high dollar brands before we went with a Montana. The only one with a better infrastructure than the Montana was a company in Junction City, KS that custom builds 5th wheels and they cost a good deal more than our stick house. Several higher dollar rigs had the same plumbing, flooring and supports as our TT had and we only paid $15,000 for that.
I attended my first rally this year and it didn't seem to me to be an "Old Boy Network". The top Keystone people spent an hour with us being raked over the coals about putting Marathon tires on the rigs. Dexter had the embarrassing moment when they said their quality control makes sure all the U bolts leave the factory tightened. I asked how many in the room found theirs were not properly tightened and almost everyone in the room raised their hands. Dexter said they were going to recheck procedures. Whether they do or not is immaterial to this discussion, the point is no one from MOC appeared to be there to "Go along and Get along".

[richfaa]

try this http://www.rvservicetechs.com/ Click on Locate a tech and find a certified tech in your area or city....See if your dealer is on the list..

[rvghostdriver]

quote:Originally posted by DQDick

We looked at some of the high dollar brands before we went with a Montana. The only one with a better infrastructure than the Montana was a company in Junction City, KS that custom builds 5th wheels and they cost a good deal more than our stick house. Several higher dollar rigs had the same plumbing, flooring and supports as our TT had and we only paid $15,000 for that.
I attended my first rally this year and it didn't seem to me to be an "Old Boy Network". The top Keystone people spent an hour with us being raked over the coals about putting Marathon tires on the rigs. Dexter had the embarrassing moment when they said their quality control makes sure all the U bolts leave the factory tightened. I asked how many in the room found theirs were not properly tightened and almost everyone in the room raised their hands. Dexter said they were going to recheck procedures. Whether they do or not is immaterial to this discussion, the point is no one from MOC appeared to be there to "Go along and Get along".

That company in Junction City, KS, is New Horizons and a new fifthwheel from New Horizons starts at around $150,000 and goes up from there. Each unit is custom built individually and the new owner is usually involved in the custom design of the interior especially.

As was said here, you cannot compare this rig to a Montana unless you want to pay $150,000 for a Montana.

I just wish those who are unhappy would sell their Montanas and leave so they find out how others are pretty much the same unless you spend a whole lot more money and they could quit being complainers all the time.

[sailer]

I think Phil should start his own RV company and then we all would have the very best and the lowest price around.If you don't like your MONTANA SELL it and get on with life . just like a divorice. It is time to move on as all this is is a WAR . Anything you buy today or last 50 years will fall apart . SO FIX it and stop belly acking about it . This is my last time on this subject,,sailer

[RVWheels]

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