Rear Towing Hitch - Montana Owners Club

rickfox · 08-09-2005, 03:56 AM

I spoke with the Montana factory yesterday about installing a 2" receiver hitch on the back of a Montana. According to them, doing so technically voids the warranty on the trailer. However, they also said that each and every warranty issue is addressed on it own merits. I was told this meant that warranty issues that could not be "reasonably" connected with the installation of the hitch would be handled.

That being said, I was also told that the factory was "aware" of numerous Montana owners that had installed rear hitches and (although they do not track this information)apparently are not having problems related to its installation.

Since I am considering doing so, will some of you that have actually installed a rear hitch, please comment on your findings? How it was installed, any problems, what you are hauling, etc.

sreigle · 08-09-2005, 09:19 AM

Rob Cooley, a MOC member, who has not been on here in a long time installed a hitch himself. He posted a link to his pictures that might be helpful to you. The link is
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...85&uid=1095333

rickfox · 08-09-2005, 02:12 PM

Thanks for the link Steve.

I have seen these before but could not remember how to go about finding them again. Do you know how I can contact him to ask a few questions? For example, the pictures show 2 hitch receivers. I wonder what he was carrying/towing.

Thanks again
Rick

Montana_4221 · 08-09-2005, 02:32 PM

rickfox,
In addition to owners installing them, when we ordered our new 3295rk a few weeks ago we discussed having the dealer install in their shop a 2" receiver for us. We have not made the decision to do that as of yet.I'm gratefull that you shared that info. We may want to investigate further.

richfaa · 08-09-2005, 02:32 PM

Seems doing that would upset the weight distribution characteristics of the RV.How would you compensate for the hitch weight of whatever you are towing??? Let us know what you find out.

rickfox · 08-09-2005, 03:09 PM

By the way Steve,

I see that you have been full timing since 3/03.

How has the 3295RK held up?
Do you have any comments about the hitch weight?
How has the carpet held up?
Do you have hi-gloss exterior? What are your thoughts about hi-gloss?
If you were to buy another 5ver, would it be another Montana?
If you could change the 3295, what changes would you make?

Thanks for any response!

Rick

rickfox · 08-09-2005, 05:22 PM

Rich,

I currently tow a motorcycle trailer behind my 98 Cardinal. Since we are planning on the purchase of a new trailer after the first of the year, we have been doing a lot of looking, measuring, and weighing. Our current best choice is the 3400RL.

We have applied various weights to the MC trailer and taken numerous weight measurements on the CAT scales. There are a lot of variables, but we found that "in general" every 2 pounds of tongue weight on the hitch added to the rear of a typical 5ver, reduces the 5th wheel hitch pin weight about 1 pound. Interestingly, most hitch pin weights are on the heavy side, so in many cases reducing the hitch pin weight on the TV is actually a good thing.

Our findings were recently "sort of" confirmed when we talked with Nuwa who makes the Hitchhiker 5ver - they offer a rear hitch as an option. They stated that a "general rule of thumb" was that every 2 pounds of rear hitch weight reduced the 5ver hitch pin weight by about 1 pound. Brilliant minds think alike??? Just kidding.

The real concern of the manufacturers seems to be that adding weight to the frame of the 5ver can/might cause flexing and/or bending of the frame. That's why many of them do not want to officially allow the installation of a rear hitch. For example, placing a large enough tongue weight at the rear could overload the 5ver axles, and actually cause frame damage. The question is how much can be added and still have a reasonable margin? Currently, Nuwa allows a 200 pound max tongue weight, and 2500 pounds towing weight.

For what its worth, my mechanical engineering buddy has calculated that the dual 10" I beam frame used by both Cardinal and Montana can easily support 500 pounds per I beam - 1000 pounds total tongue weight. I have personally towed with over 800 pounds tongue weight on my Cardinal. But, I had the brains of my mechanical engineering buddy and the assets of Boeing Aircraft Co. designing my set up.

My current desire is to tow about 1500 pounds with a tongue weight around 400 - 500 pounds. Thus far, my investigations indicate that the Montana frame can handle this if things are contructed properly.

richfaa · 08-10-2005, 05:35 AM

Thanks,,did a copy on this post.You are not talking about a lot of hitch weight or towing weight.WE once saw a fairly large 5th towing a 26 or 28 foot travel trailer..the thing was all over the road. Later Came across the rig in a rest stop engaged in a conversation with a State trooper, made us wonder if that set up was legal???

Montana_2785 · 08-10-2005, 05:43 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Thanks,,did a copy on this post.You are not talking about a lot of hitch weight or towing weight.WE once saw a fairly large 5th towing a 26 or 28 foot travel trailer..the thing was all over the road. Later Came across the rig in a rest stop engaged in a conversation with a State trooper, made us wonder if that set up was legal???

At a minimum, I'd bet he exceeded (by LOTS) the maximum vehicle combined length. Here in Illinois I can't exceed 60 feet total length.

I'd just as soon not share the road with the rig you described... Sounds really scary.

Eric

richfaa · 08-10-2005, 06:27 AM

The max length here on the Ohio TPk is around 70 feet.They have stripes painted on the ground at the toll booths. We have seen more than one camper pulling camper on the road.I seemed like a bad Idea to me however rickfox has done the research and it sounds like you can do it safely IF done correctly.

Montana_2785 · 08-10-2005, 07:49 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

The max length here on the Ohio TPk is around 70 feet.They have stripes painted on the ground at the toll booths. We have seen more than one camper pulling camper on the road.I seemed like a bad Idea to me however rickfox has done the research and it sounds like you can do it safely IF done correctly.

rickfox pulling a small motorcycle trailer is one thing. Pulling a fullsize TT behind a 5er is quite another.... That's the one that gives me the cold pricklies

Eric

azstar · 08-10-2005, 08:33 AM

Hello Rickfox and All,

Remember that 2 Lb. to 1 Lb. ratio also means that you must add them together and this weight is now added to the axle's of your 5'er. The weight doesn't just disappear.

A 200 Lb. weight on the back of your 5'er takes 100 lbs. off the hitch weight but you have in this case added 300 more Lbs. to the Axles.

Your Eng. buddy has calculated the stress on the frame based on a static (not in motion) load. He must consider it as a dynamic (mass in motion) load when He is looking at its capacity. There are I'm guessing plenty of Folks out there that have bent their Axles due to having too much load on their units. All it takes is a good jolt at say a RR Crossing.

Happy Camping

rickfox · 08-10-2005, 05:38 PM

Steve,

You are correct. Placing a 200# load at the rear of the 5ver, can place what amounts to 300# additional load on the axles. However, whatever is done in loading up the 5ver - whether its carrying 400# of water or 400# of tongue weight at the rear, overall trailer weight specifications/limitations should still be adhered to. Don't overload the trailer axles/wheels/tires, don't overload the TV, don't exceed Gross Combined Weight rating. I also have another rule that I try hard to follow - "Don't do stupid things!" Hopefully, by attempting to think things through and by getting input from others on this forum, I can keep from breaking this last rule!

It is perhaps also true that it will be the axles, tires, or wheels that will be the weak link rather than the frame - especially since the axles are only rated at 6000# each. However, its somewhat difficult to predict exactly what might in fact be more stressful on the axles, placing a 400# water load almost directly over the axles, or placing a 400# load at the rear, or for that matter in the front storage area in the bedroom. In all cases, the tendency of the weight is to remain at rest (vertically speaking) while the springs and shocks react and absorb the impact to the axles and tires. With the load directly over the axles, all forces and their resulting reactions must be dealt with within the tires, wheels, axle and frame. But having the 400# weight fore or aft of the axles will allow other dynamics to occur, which can actually tend to reduce the overall impact to the axles - such as front to back tilting of the trailer and a resulting transfer of forces to the hitch and suspension of the TV.

azstar · 08-11-2005, 08:47 AM

Good on Ya Rick,

You've got the right mind set. Stay within the Manufactures Specs. for everything and you'll be just fine.

Happy Camping

richfaa · 08-13-2005, 12:12 PM

Interesting stuff..I have a engineer friend who works for FOMOCO..Gave him this problem.he took the spec's for the 3670 home with him and after a couple of days, without going into detail said " Rich,I don't think it would be a good idea to tow ANYTHING behind a fifth wheel." Good enough for me.....

rickfox · 08-13-2005, 05:06 PM

Rich,

For what its worth, anybody can say anything. If your engineer friend has some well founded objections, please strongly suggest that he let us know what they are. It would be good for us all to know what they might be so we could learn. At the present time, triple towing (I don't really know why they call it that) is legal in a majority of the states and is legal at the commerical level in almost all states. That being the case, I'm sure there have been a lot of "engineers" that have determined that this practice can be accomplished in a safe manner.

richfaa · 08-14-2005, 04:42 AM

The main thing he stressed was that to much stress would be placed on the axles , something about dynamic loading depending on the weight of what's being towed,Said the frame was plenty strong but the axles were just within specs for GVWR at rest but the dynamics of towing caused other stress to occur..that would/could cause overloading thus failure of the axel..way over my head..was not all that excited about towing anything anyhow. As you are doing would suggest some serious homework on the subject..safety is the primary concern...

azstar · 08-14-2005, 07:47 AM

Hello Again Rick,

I think I now understand after reading all your posts here. You too like us are Bikers.

We probably like you just "Don't leave home with out it". For us the MC & RV are a package deal.

So, I know what I would do in your case. I would design to pull a Trailer for the Bike.

We have been TT people for 30+ years. Most of those with a large MC in PU bed. This is also the only reason we don't buy 5ers.

I'm a retired Aerospace Eng. with a specialty in structures, and yes it can be done. What Rob Cooley has done is a great start. For Rob, it was designed as a Bicycle rack. I would follow His lead and add a little more to it.

I understand the draw backs of towing a trailer behind a 5er, like, you can't back-up, more inertia to deal with when stopping, you don't know you have a flat until you see people franticly waving and pointing and possible insurance issues. I would still have to go forward with the plan.

There have been several discussions on this subject, with links to some MC Trailers with double hitches and single wheels that are interesting. They allow you to back up if needed. If you do a search on this Forum using "Motorcycle" you may find them.

If I had to go your route, would probably put the pressure sensors in the MC Trailer tires, so I would get a heads-up on a flat and I would give special attention to the loaded weight on the 5ers axles.

Wish you well and Happy Camping

rickfox · 08-14-2005, 04:56 PM

Good to hear from you Steve,

About a year ago, I mounted a MC carrier rail to the back of my 98 Cardinal. My friend, also a retired Aerospace Eng from Boeing, helped me on the project. The project was successful and I hauled my baby, a 79 Fat Bob HD (881# including the MC and structure) with confidence. To keep an eye on it, I purchased a $29 camera and a $39 5" LCD game monitor - works great! The problem - there are precious few 5ver's out there that have the geometry and weight distribution that would allow me to be able to carry, or not carry, the MC and still be within hitch pin weight requirements.

So, I purchased a Swivelwheel trailer - just like you are referring to. I have connected it to the 5ver and made approximately 12 different CAT scale weight measurements with various loads etc. The results have been just as hoped. And I still have the camera - which is mounted at the top of the rear ladder - to keep an eye on things. I am within specs everywhere, and the suspension on the swivelwheel appears to do a very good job of transferring bumps away from the 5ver rear end - no where near the forces caused by mounting the whole MC to the rear of the 5ver. Thus far, the project seems to be successful, but I have less than a 1,000 miles on the setup thus far.

Also, as you mentioned, since it is hard mounted horizontally to the 5ver rear ( it is allowed to hinge up and down but does not rotate side to side as with a ball mount) the only difference when backing up is that the 5ver acts as though it is 8' longer.

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