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Old 02-18-2019, 08:40 AM   #21
PNW Fireguy
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Congratulations on your decision. Like others looking forward to your feedback. The lithium battery market is very quickly moving from the DIY arena to fully compete with other battery chemistries within the RV and marine industries.

I did a bit of looking online and have found that the Utah based company's battery is directly based upon a unique solid electrolyte design created by a team of engineers associated with the University of Texas at Austin. Based upon this information I don't suspect they are being manufactured or assembled by the other two lithium manufacturers in that geographical area. I could not find any information regarding the BMS, maybe the OP can share based upon their purchase experience.
 
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:05 AM   #22
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Congratulations on your decision. Like others looking forward to your feedback. The lithium battery market is very quickly moving from the DIY arena to fully compete with other battery chemistries within the RV and marine industries.

I did a bit of looking online and have found that the Utah based company's battery is directly based upon a unique solid electrolyte design created by a team of engineers associated with the University of Texas at Austin. Based upon this information I don't suspect they are being manufactured or assembled by the other two lithium manufacturers in that geographical area. I could not find any information regarding the BMS, maybe the OP can share based upon their purchase experience.

Not sure BMS stands for, please explain.. Sorry
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:45 AM   #23
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_management_system
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:00 AM   #24
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Thanks for this info. I will update. One thing I did forget to mention is they did say my current converter would charge these so that will be something I keep an eye on.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:25 AM   #25
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Sorry BMS stands for Battery Management System. The fact that you were told that your current converter can be used reinforces that these batteries have and internal BMS integral to their footprint. This is consistent with other drop-in replacement lithium offerings. As I have said in a previous thread the BMS is the heart of the lithium battery in an RV or marine environmnent. If it fails there is a very good chance of damage to your batteries. A good BMS ensures your batteries are charging and discharging within manufacturer limits and specifications helping to ensure that you get those 3000-5000 cycles as promised. I would imagine like the BB offerings the battery capacity is understated due to the saftey margins within the integrated BMS.
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Old 02-19-2019, 07:06 AM   #26
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For $700 I can buy 4 regular batteries witch may last 4 years equal to 16 years of service. Are these batteries going to last that long? Sure they only weigh #20. I get that when some guys use 2. 6 volt golf cart batteries which weigh more than one 12 volt deep cycle battery from Walmart. The idea is nice but it is cost effective to go this route.

Another question how long do they last on one charge when boondocking?

It's a nice idea but expensive.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:08 AM   #27
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For $700 I can buy 4 regular batteries witch may last 4 years equal to 16 years of service. Are these batteries going to last that long? Sure they only weigh #20. I get that when some guys use 2. 6 volt golf cart batteries which weigh more than one 12 volt deep cycle battery from Walmart. The idea is nice but it is cost effective to go this route.

Another question how long do they last on one charge when boondocking?

It's a nice idea but expensive.
How long they last on one charge depends on what you are running just like with any battery.
I am not a full timer so the have a 3500-5000 cycle life and you use 100% verus 50% of a regular battery and as the Manufacturer Rep said they have a lifetime warranty so in 10 yrs if they aren’t charging 100% anymore then they replace them. Now I know that will only work if they are still around.

So for me I decided to give them a try and they may not be for everyone.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:16 AM   #28
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More usable power, higher charge and discharge rates and lighter weight...price is the lone negative. In time the price will come down as well but that is still years away. However if you compare the price per watt-hr over the rated cycles of PBSO4, AGM & LiFePO4 they are priced competitively right now.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:53 AM   #29
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For $700 I can buy 4 regular batteries witch may last 4 years equal to 16 years of service. Are these batteries going to last that long? Sure they only weigh #20. I get that when some guys use 2. 6 volt golf cart batteries which weigh more than one 12 volt deep cycle battery from Walmart. The idea is nice but it is cost effective to go this route.

Another question how long do they last on one charge when boondocking?

It's a nice idea but expensive.
Those Walmart (or where ever you get your lead acid cells) can only go down to 50% rated capacity before you start damaging them. If you or the dealer runs them all the way down life is really shortened. LI batteries can be fully discharged with no ill effects.

So that single 100 Amp Hour LI = 2 100 Amp Hour lead acid. That LI is good for 3000-5000 cycles or about 15 years. Assuming you run them down about 350 times a year.

Not to mention no water levels to maintain.

So you would need 8 very well maintained, gingerly used lead acid batteries to equal 1 rode hard put away dry LI battery.

I am starting to rethink wanting to go with AGMs Especially if the BMS allows for straight swap out. Not needing to swap out the converter.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:43 AM   #30
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It's the down stroke for the LiFePO4 that causes me to cringe. Sure they may last twice as long, but they cost more than double what some AGMs go for. If you know you are going to be using that set-up for long enough to recover the cost... then maybe.

But there is a kicker for using existing technology... the saved money can be invested even modestly and will grow. If... down the road the LI batteries get cheaper and more readily accepted you win both ways when you decide to switch to better battery tech.

To me the biggest downside of AGM or lead acid is the weight. Could be a real problem on some RVs. I see a future where demand for higher CCC on rigs will push the RV industry to improve the frames and suspensions and brakes to accommodate the market... which will help AGM sales At least in the fairly near term of, say, the next ten years.

On the other hand, as LI becomes more commonplace there could also be pressure to reduce rig weight to improve fuel mileage while towing and as ICE engines make their slow fade out to be replaced at some point by battery powered trucks then the cycle will be complete. But that is at least a decade away or more. 25 years from now, diesel powered POVs will be mostly a thing of the past, gone the way of the horse and buggy... it is coming.

A lot of moving parts to consider in this discussion. Pay more and save weight, or pay less and go with proven but heavy old tech. The gap in price is shrinking but we are not there yet, in my book... Hmmm, I choose old school.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:56 AM   #31
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A little interesting bathroom reading/viewing for those interested:



Forgot to add that this kid built a DIY LiFePO4 pack cheaper than a comparable PbSO4 offering. Pricing is really only at the top of the spectrum with drop-ion replacements and understandably so. Not everyone has the know how or desire to build and operate a DIY battery pack.
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:35 PM   #32
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$700
Like the guys on Shark Tank say, For that reason I'm out LOL
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:49 PM   #33
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PNW Fireguy thanks great video. Just what I’ve been looking for.
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Old 02-20-2019, 05:16 PM   #34
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$700
Like the guys on Shark Tank say, For that reason I'm out LOL
I look at it this way 700.00 per battery, lifetime warranty and the only camping I do is boondocking maybe just maybe 1 outing a summer with hookups they will pay for themselves.
And I’m not worried about them going out of business as they are a strong local company here locally.
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Old 02-20-2019, 05:25 PM   #35
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I have owned an all electric shooting cart (I shoot Sporting Clays) longer than I have owned my Montana (my Montana is a 2007 3400RL that we took delivery on in summer of 2006). I have to replace the batteries (8-6 volt) every 3-4 years. The one thing I have found with lithium batteries is that you better make damn sure that they don't discharge past a certain point or you end up with expensive boat anchors. My Bad Boy Buggy currently has AGM's and I'm happy. Just don't want a fellow MOC'er to spend a lot of $$$ and regret it.
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:15 PM   #36
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I have owned an all electric shooting cart (I shoot Sporting Clays) longer than I have owned my Montana (my Montana is a 2007 3400RL that we took delivery on in summer of 2006). I have to replace the batteries (8-6 volt) every 3-4 years. The one thing I have found with lithium batteries is that you better make damn sure that they don't discharge past a certain point or you end up with expensive boat anchors. My Bad Boy Buggy currently has AGM's and I'm happy. Just don't want a fellow MOC'er to spend a lot of $$$ and regret it.
This is opposite of what is being said about lithium. Where standard lead acid or AGM batteries suffer some damage when they are routinely discharged below 50%, lithium is supposed to be able to be discharged down to 20% or lower without dropping voltage or being damaged.
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:37 PM   #37
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The lithium battery packs we have discussing in this thread for RV purposes are all regulated by battery management systems. The BMS among other things prevents the over discharge of the battery pack. In the case of the drop-in replacements that I have knowledge of overdischarge is not only not possible without a major component failure but the settings are so conservative that what the ender user observes as maximum capacity (discharge or charge) is actually a conservative safety margin setting embedded into the BMS by the manufacturers.


LiFePO4 batteries have a sweet spot they like to live in. The closer you set your state of charge and depth of discharge around this sweet spot the higher the maximum lifetime cycles you will obtain from your pack. If you keep lithiums at 100% charge consistently their life will be decreased. In general running to either extreme charge or discharge will shorten their life as will operation at temperature extremes.



If you can live generally in the 85% SOC to 20% DOD you will find the sweet spot of maximum life span without overly sacrificing potential capacity. This does not mean that you can't discharge to 5%. If you consistently do however your chances of reaching the stated 10,000 cycles are reduced.


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Old 02-20-2019, 07:19 PM   #38
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Derek,

I wish I had wandered over to look at your setup while we were both at Quartzsite. My 4 golf cart batteries are not 2 years old yet so I expect several more years of service before its time to replace them. Sounds like 4 of the LiFePO4 batteries would equate to about 8 golf cart batteries in terms of energy storage at around 25% of the weight. If the BMS makes them true drop ins, they should work with my GoPower 3000 I/C and Blue Sky solar charge controller.

The price should come down some by the time I need to buy again.
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:33 PM   #39
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Derek,

I wish I had wandered over to look at your setup while we were both at Quartzsite. My 4 golf cart batteries are not 2 years old yet so I expect several more years of service before its time to replace them. Sounds like 4 of the LiFePO4 batteries would equate to about 8 golf cart batteries in terms of energy storage at around 25% of the weight. If the BMS makes them true drop ins, they should work with my GoPower 3000 I/C and Blue Sky solar charge controller.

The price should come down some by the time I need to buy again.



You got there too late to see my head and shoulders tucked into my battery compartment feverishly trying to complete my installation to keep the peace in the house. If you are coming to the Coos Bay we will be there. I went a DIY route for a couple of reasons. But to put in 700AH of one of the drop-in replacements was not what I wanted to spend. It also helps to be a techno geek.


If you at some point decide to go LiFePO4 your present I/C and solar charger will be fine. If you do not already have a shunt with I/C you might want to add one so you can accurately measure total amps in and out of the battery bank. The lithium voltage curve is so flat that voltage is a poor metric to measure state of charge.



If you happen to be in the RGV over the next two months give us a shout.
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Old 02-21-2019, 06:53 AM   #40
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Derek,

Thanks. I do have a shunt that lets me read amps in and out on my battery monitor. Will not make it to Coos Bay - headed back to Heber City in June. Was just down to Black Gap just east of Big Bend National Park.

Will continue to read your lithium results with interest.
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