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Old 11-06-2004, 02:56 PM   #1
Montana_70
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I need help with my Keystone dilema!

Some of you long time members know what I have been through, and am still going through with leaks in Miss Montana. I have come to a point where I am very tired of dealing with the problem. Many of you know as well it has not just been leaks that I have had to deal with. I have been patient. I have taken all the time, spent my money, and have given Keystone every credit when they stepped up to the plate no matter how much grief I went through.

The update is Keystone has agreed to take my Miss Montana, once again back to the factory and try again to fix the the leak in the bedroom slide.

In March of 2004 they took this same unit back to the factory to fix this leak. I'm sure because of all the problems I had with the firs unit, and this was the replacement unit, they wanted to step up to the plate and make things right. They told me at that time, "You will be inconvenienced but it will not cost you any more money and I promise you, we will fix the leakf". They agreed to pay for my lodging while it went to the factory. I moved out for two weeks while they took it back. I was inconvenienced, but they did pay for my lodging. This is after I paid for four weeks of lodging and was inconvenienced the previous July while they tried to fix this leak in my previous unit. And after spending the previous May on vacation time at a dealership trying to get the same leak fixed. And many days off from work having techs come out to my site to try and fix this leak and everything else that went wrong. It has been life in the twilight zone.

My dilemma is this. Now that Keystone wants to take it back to the factory, one more time, they refuse to pay for my lodging. I don't get how we have come from, "You will have to be inconvenienced, but it will not cost you", To, "You will have to be inconvenienced but it will cost you as well."

I'm thinking if they paid for my lodging to take it back to the factory, and they did not do the job, then why am I supposed to pay because they did not get the job done? I just don't get it. Why is it about their bottom line and not mine?

Don't get me wrong. If I were sitting fat with a nice bank account I would probably just suck it up and pay again, like I did before, one more time, to get this problem resolved. But due to my four months of unemployment and hurricanes I'm not financially able to suck up one more cost trying to fix Miss Montana. i am not financially able to go into credit card debt for $1,200 to pay for a room for two weeks while they, try once again to fix this leak. If I had not already spent the time, money, and attention to to living in a Montana that was not a daily nightmare, I might be willing to accept their corporate stance, but given what I have been through, I just can't see them asking me to pay a nickel to fix the problem. I have paid and paid and paid. They have had every chance to get it right. I'm willing to move out, one more time, and live in a motel, hoping I remember to bring everything I need before my home heads off to Indiana, but I am not willing to pay another dime to fix the problem. I have been there and one that and it has not been fixed.


So my question to the forum is this.. if Keystone was willing to pay all costs to take Miss Montana back to the factory last March to fix the problem, and they did not do that, is it right to ask me now to pay to take her back to fix the problem they did not fix?
 
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Old 11-06-2004, 03:01 PM   #2
sreigle
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BJ, I agree with you. I don't know who you talked with at Keystone but you might call again and ask to go up the ladder (and keep going up) until you exhaust the possibilities or get satisfaction.
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Old 11-06-2004, 03:34 PM   #3
Montana Sky
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I think I am with Steve on this one. Continue to go up the ladder until you get with someone who has a big enough name tag to handle this matter in which it should have been done to begin with. Good luck, keep us posted.
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Old 11-06-2004, 03:37 PM   #4
Montana_70
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sreigle,

Thanks! I need the validation. Jeff is the one playing hard ball with me and I just don't get it! We have been through so much and now he (they) are taking this position. I does not compute.
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Old 11-06-2004, 03:44 PM   #5
Montana_70
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Thanks, Sue,

You are right. "It should have been done to begin with". I don't know where to go above Jff Rank, but I guess I'll just have to put to time in to find out.
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Old 11-06-2004, 04:42 PM   #6
sreigle
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BJ, I'm really surprised at that. Jeff seems like a very reasonable guy. I wonder what you'd find out if you asked him point blank why the change in attitude? I don't think I'd go above Jeff. He's a VP at Keystone now so anyone above him is going to be Keystone Corporate-minded and probably not as sensitive to Montana issues as Jeff has been. But that's just my opinion. Do you have someplace you can stay around your home area without incurring motel costs? If so, maybe you should ask Jeff to pay to have your Montana taken to and from the factory as an alternative? Again, just thoughts.
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Old 11-06-2004, 06:55 PM   #7
harleyrider
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I agree with every one else.if they paid for your lodging the firat time.why not now??you are having the same problem.

May I ask where its leaking in your bed room slide.Not an RV tech but I would think it shouldn`t be that hard to figure out where its leaking.Maybe its more complex then I figure.
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Old 11-07-2004, 02:51 AM   #8
Montana_70
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Steve,

Believe me I'm am very confused about Jeff's current position. The only answer I have about, "why the change in attitude", came from NIc Davis who told me, Jeff feels paying for my lodging last March was too costly. The funny thing is, I told them last March it was going to be very expensive to find a place to stay for two weeks on the SW Coast of FL at the height of Spring Break. I spent a week calling and two days going from place to place trying to find Keystone a good deal. It did not happen, but they were the ones insisting on that time frame. They OK'd what I found and paid the bill. The problem is what they took it back to the factory for was still a problem when they returned it to me. It still leaks. I know Keystone lost money on that deal, but it had nothing to do with me.

I emailed Jeff two weeks ago, again, stating my position and how I feel about this and I have not heard from him. I really don't understand it either.

I'm not sure what you mean about an alternative in paying to take it to and from the factory. They are doing that. If I had a friend or relative to stay would I would do that even if I did not want to, to have this problem resolved. The problem is I have only lived in this area since the first of Oct (I'm on the East Coast of FL now) and do not know anyone. I have just started a job and cannot leave and go somewhere else for two weeks. Moving out of my unit, once again, is bad enough but to have to go into debt over it, puts me between a rock and a hard place.

harleyrider,

Yes, it's the same problem. The one problem that is been constant through two Montana's. To be fair, Keystone has spent a lot of money on my two units. But none of it was well spent because the problem still exists. I was promised that if I agreed to move from my 2002 and incur some of the costs they would build me a 2004 that would not leak. After towing 200 miles last December to make the switch, which cost me more time and money, I had to have a water removal company come out and suck the water out of my carpet in Feb. That's when Keystone, again stepped up to the plate and paid to have it towed back to the factory and paid for my lodging that time. They did fix the leak in the dining area but the leak in the bedroom slide, the same leak they tried numerous times to fix in my old unit, was and is still happening.

The same leak that caused me to take off work and take it back to the dealer in May 2003 (first unit) the same leak that caused me to have to live with family and friends and stay in Motels (at my cost) for four weeks in July of 2003 while it went to another dealership. Not to mention all the times I took off work waiting for Techs to show up at my site with their silicone guns. The only difference with the leak in the new unit and the old unit is I had mushrooms growing in my carpet in the old one. I don't have mushrooms with this leak.

Anyone on this forum who knows my history, knows that leaks are not the only serious problems I have had, but the one leak has been constant. I told Jeff last Feb that I know it was going to be more time and aggravation on my part but I was not going to spend another dime on fixing problems. He supported my position then, he won't support it now.

I brought this matter to the forum because I consider myself and fair and reasonable person. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility. I know looking at it from a Corporate position, my buying a Montana has not been very cost effective for Keystone, but I also know it has not been very cost effective for me. Since Keystone cannot see my point of view I just wanted to check here to see if any of you can. The money I have had to shell out trying to resolve my Montana's problems is part of the reason I'm in the hole I'm currently in.

All I'm asking is that they fix the problem, make it go away, and not ask me to spend anymore of my money. It's bad enough I have to move out of it again, get it ready to tow, and send it back to Indiana for two weeks. Hoping it will be on once piece after the hot shot driver tows it like there is no tomorrow. Hoping I won't have to replace the converter and battery again, because Keystone did not disconnect it at the factory. Hoping I won't have to use the campground showers again because Keystone told me they refilled the tanks after I had to drain them for the trip because it was below freezing in Indiana at the time. Most of all hoping moving out of it and living in a motel for two weeks is not, once again, all for nothing.

Sorry for the long response, I'm just at my wits end with this. I have not had one entire month of a problem free unit since May 2002 and I'm in a venting mood I guess.

I appreciate your support.
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Old 11-07-2004, 03:59 AM   #9
Just148
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Fla, I wrote you before about this issue. I'v had my unit in for the same reason and they replaced the seals around the slides, which I still have a leak. As I mention before I believe the proble is the down spout. Water is coming down the spout and the seal is not allowing all the water to flow out without hitting the seal causing water to fall to the floor and soak the carpet. If Keystone would add something to the down spout end to chatch the overflow of water so that it would chanel it out beyond the down spout and out of the unit it may stop the leak.
I don't thank you should have to spend and monies since the problem has always been there. It is their problem to resoulve this issue. I know with cars there is a lemon law.
Just my opion.
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Old 11-07-2004, 04:12 AM   #10
sreigle
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BJ, my mistake. Sorry. I had the wrong impression and thought you towed the Montana to Goshen and stayed there last time. I'm going to send you a private email in a few minutes.
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Old 11-07-2004, 08:07 AM   #11
CountryGuy
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BJ

I have nothing constructive to add to this discussion, only our thoughts and prayers and good wishes.

Having had a few problems with our rig, we can empathize with you, we know how heartsick you must be over this continuing saga.

Please keep us posted, we wish you all the best. We don't know how you have been able to stand the stress, topped off with the loss of your job, death of your mom and all those hurricanes. I would have been a raving, drooling maniac by now.

God speed.

Carol
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Old 11-07-2004, 12:44 PM   #12
Glenn and Lorraine
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fla native,
This is so unlike Montana and Jeff. This is not the impression I got of Montana at the rally. The seemed more than willing to take care of any on going situations and your leaks are most definitely an on going situation. Something is terribly wrong.
We have followed your situation right from the start and you are absolutely in the right. Don't give up. If, as they say, they actually do read this forum and see the MOC membership fully supporting you in your efforts to get the kind of treatment you deserve I am sure they will come around. Stay on them until they give in and I am sure they will.
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Old 11-07-2004, 03:41 PM   #13
sreigle
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BJ, if Keystone had fixed the problems once, then it remained fix for quite awhile, then it started leaking again through no fault of theirs, then I could see their position. But my understanding is you have had this leak from the beginning and no attempt to fix it either by the dealer or Keystone has been successful. Therefore this is still a warranty issue. If I misunderstand this, let me know.
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Old 11-07-2004, 04:43 PM   #14
Montana_70
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Glenn and Lorraine,

Thanks for your support. But to be fair to Keystone, and Jeff, it's not that they are not willing to try, once again, to take care of the problem, it's that they expect me to spend more of my money in the process. This is my issue. It is not a new problem. It is the same problem again and again.

I do understand Keystone's position in not wanting to set a president that they pay for lodging for Montana owners needing warranty work. The problem for me is that every time they have stepped up to the plate, and cost me to do it, they have dropped the ball and I'm back to square one. This is not a president. I think the odds of this happening again in my lifetime or Keystone's is a long shot for sure. I am not sure what the lesson is for them or me. Maybe with Keystone it's quality control. For me, I'm not sure, maybe a constant lesson in diplomacy.

I have lived and worked in the corporate world for many years. I understand the bottom line. I also understand ethics. Jeff said to me last March, "We will pay to tow your unit back to the factory to fix this leak and pay for your lodging". That was good ethics, considering what we had gone through. Why don't they think ethics now when they same problem is here again?

One thing I do know about dealing with anyone at Keystone. They just don't get it. When it comes to moving out of your unit, or taking it back to the dealer, or having it towed back to the factory. They don't understand what a time consuming, give up you life, process it is. Their position is that every unit has it problems. They did step up and did the right thing last March. Now they are back peddling because they don't want to set a president. That just leaves me in a mess. I just want to get on with my life and not have to face, every day, a problem with my Montana and not spend anymore money in the process.

I have not mentioned on this thread that since I have been in my new unit, as of December, I have had to live out of a cooler for two weeks, did not have hot water for two weeks, have no fantastic fan that works, have had to have Keystone replace the converter, had to to force them to replace the battery, the back screen falls out on a daily basis, the flashlight does not work, my mini blinds are a mess due to the hot shot driver's trip from Indiana, the outside lights keep dying every two or three weeks, the propane regulator has had to be replaced, I fixed the shower leaks myself, after several attempts by the silicone guy. It's been one problem after another. Not to mention mention leaks.

I hope I have made my point. I will spare you the nightmare with my first Montana. I will stop now. I will not go on and on about my dealings with Keystone. It has been and is getting to be too much. Just too much.







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Old 11-07-2004, 11:43 PM   #15
Montana_70
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Steve,

I am still under warranty with this unit. I was still under warranty with the first one. The nature of this leak is that it does not leak every time it rains. It leaks when the conditions are right. (wind direction) But it has never been fixed.
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Old 11-08-2004, 01:21 AM   #16
Montana_31
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BJ,
So sorry to hear of your on going problems. Perhaps an alternative plan would be for Montana to bring a used unit, one traded in, for you to live in while they address your problem at the factory. It would be a pain to transfer the necessary possessions to the used unit, but a lot cheaper than paying for a hotel room.
Just a thought for another proposition to give Jeff the chance to do the right thing.
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Old 11-08-2004, 02:52 AM   #17
Montana_621
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I'm so sorry you are having to go thru this but I feel you are correct in what you are doing also. Since they did not fix it the first time around and paid for you housing then they should be doing it again. This is your home and since they can't get their act together to fix the problems it's not your fault.

They may be losing money on your unit (which they have insurance for) but they have not lost one penny on ours. So in my opinion it's a wash so don't feel bad that your unit needs to go back and you are sick of dealing with them. If they did it right the first time you wouldn't be even contacting them!
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Old 11-08-2004, 11:31 AM   #18
sgf
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Fla.Native, have you posted your problems on other forums to let other future buyers know, this might get Keystones attention, i know you do not want to bash keystone,but we,too; have had way to many problems with our unit,keystone;and the dealer have stepped up to the plate but we only use ours for weekends and vacations, not a home,so they at least owe that to you to give you what they should have fixed in the first place,not at your expense,as the largest seller, they may have lost money on yours but as a whole they have made plenty for theirselves and thor, did thor not just buy crossroads,get at them and our prayers and hopes are with you and we totally support you, not keystones stance.And i am very vocal on other forums and at campgrouds we stay at and the keystone name,imo;is going down very quickly according to everyone we talk to.
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Old 11-08-2004, 02:02 PM   #19
Montana_70
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Again, thank you very much for the support. Sometimes I feel I'm so alone with this problem. I really hate having to come on the forum all the time with another Keystone dilemma. But it always turns out that you are a group of leveled headed people who can see the big picture and help me keep my perspective or help me change it if I need to.

Bob and Donna,

Your idea sounds very reasonable. I will present it in email to Jeff in the morning. The only problem I see is that they generally originate the tow up from to where the unit is and originate the tow back from Indiana. It's two different drivers. It may still be cost effective. I'll ask the question. It sure would help me because I still have to pay my lot rent even if I do go to a motel since I'm on a yearly contract with my RV Park. But I will pursue it. I would much rather schlep my stuff from one RV to another than to my truck and then to a motel room. Oh, how I hate motels.

Melissa,

I appreciate your support. I just had to laugh when you said, "if they did not get it right the first time". Oh, how I wish. If we were just talking about the second time I would not have had to negate a years worth of payments and interest and start back at square one when I went into the second unit. Yes, it is was a new unit with better options, but it completely destroyed my five year plan of having Miss Montana paid off. But you are right. They did set a president with me, by telling me they would fix the problem at no cost to me. Of course I still have to laugh a little. Have you ever lived in a Motel for two weeks and it did not cost you above and beyond the room cost?

sgf,

No, I have not gone on any other forums. You are right that I do not want to "bash Keystone". I just want them to be ethical and do the right thing regardless of their bottom line. I want them to hang in there. not matter what it costs them, because in the scheme of things, I have taken a much greater financial hit then they have when it comes to bottom lines.

I'm sorry to hear that there name is going down. They did design a 5th wheel with great floor plans and features that appealed to a lot of people at a price that was affordable to the average person. I think one of the problems is that they hit the floor running in as an upstart company in 1996 and when the designers started presenting this new and improved model with more space and this and that, that the factory could not keep up. They also took the position that there would be some problems that we will have to cover under warranty. They did not allow for the baffling once in a blue moon problem like mine, that they cannot figure out.

I showed my bedroom slide down spouts to another 3400 Montana owner the other day. He was appalled that Keystone would even consider letting a unit leave the factory like that. This is the repair they did when they took it back to the factory last March. This is the slide that still leaks. Think of it this way. You have a down spout that is 2 inches shorter than it should be. You cut it off with whatever, and then silicone another spout on to it to make it longer. But you don't quite make it long enough. If you have ever heard the term "patch job" then this is it.

I do not know what's going on with Jeff and why he is taking such a hard core position. I can make a lot of guesses and think corporate. And to be fair. it cost Keystone a lot of money last year to take Miss Montana back to the factory and pay for my lodging. But they had their chance to get it right and they did not.

I am once again, with Keystone, in the Twilight Zone. I think there is a song out there that says, "Please release me let me go"........


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Old 11-08-2004, 02:03 PM   #20
ragdoll
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fla native, I agree Keystone should be paying for your lodging. For them to have done so in March for the same problem doesn't mean they should back down and weazle out of doing so this time. No matter if you can or can't pay for extra lodging you should not be expected too in this case. They aren't losing money in the deal even if they had to do it for more than one person, which they don't!

In our unit they had to replaced and do alot but fortunately it isn't our fulltime home.

Good luck and stick to your guns.....you are right!! They need to fix the leak!

Safe travels.
Lorraine
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