Frame Flex

[ols1932]

This is long.

Just thought I'd pass on something to you that has occurred to us. I had noticed that I was beginning to get some flexing of the frame of our 2000 3555RL. So when I was at my dealer’s shop (Ketelsen RV in Hiawatha, IA) for normal preventive maintenance, I asked them to check the flex. They checked the flex and found it to be over 3/4" (flex is determined by how much movement upward there is in the kingpin between when the rig is sitting on its landing legs and it is barely lifted off the ground).

As regards the frame flex, what was disturbing to me was that the work that Keystone did back in 2004 for me with no cost to me did not hold. The fiberglass they put on continued to crack due to flexing. (I had noticed some small cracks around the bedroom slideout and realized that the pounding the rig was taking on the highways was extreme. So I had MOR/ryde Individual Suspension axles installed as well as a TrailerSaver air ride hitch. To my mind, this would relieve the stress on the frame. I didn’t know that the flex was already severe.)

My dealer got me in touch with Truck Builders in Marion, IA (a suburb of Cedar Rapids, IA). They checked the flex with a little more precision and found it to be 1 ½” whereas only ¼” or less is acceptable. They tore down the front end. Had no broken welds near the pin box, but the frame was not really connected together (the frame around the kingpin was insufficiently braced, allowing some side to side flexing as well as up and down). You could watch the frame move up and down, screws moving up and down when they raised and lowered the rig.

They continued to work on the front end to locate all the flex (there has to be “some” flex, otherwise the frame would break, according to Truck Builders). They removed the fiberglass that Keystone replaced around the bedroom slide. Lo and behold, the aluminum structures were not connected together and when they raised and lowered the front end the horizontal and vertical aluminum struts would move individually. I couldn’t believe my eyes.

This event may have turned out to be a blessing in disguise because the entire front end around the pin box has been reinforced with angle iron and welded plates to tie the entire front end of the frame together so it will operate as one member rather than several!

The estimate for the work was $3360 and the actual cost was $3155. We stayed right in the rig while they worked on it for four days. We had a bird's eye view of the work being done.

Although the rig is seven years old, my dealer had Truck Builders give them the estimate, with pictures of the damage and they sent it to Keystone. This was done more for alerting Keystone of the problem than to try and get them to foot the bill. No one expects a company to do warranty work on something that is seven years old! But there is always the chance. Both the dealer and I talked to Keystone about the problem and the owner of Truck Builders took several pictures and sent them to Lippert. He has a pretty good relationship with Lippert so there is a possibility Lippert may help a little with the bill. When I talked to Keystone, they told me it was possible but they wouldn't promise me anything.

Yesterday (July 17, 2007) my dealer called me and told me they had received an e-mail from Keystone who said they denied any claim for the repairs since the rig was seven years old. This was no surprise to me.

The only reason I'm posting this is because Truck Builders told me that they had to pick up a 5er on the freeway that had a complete collapse of the kingpin area—and it wasn’t a Keystone product! I certainly wouldn’t want that to happen. This is our home!

I learned something also while at Truck Builders, but it is what I have thought all along. People with problems with their RVs will NEVER get the manufacturers to go along with any repairs, out of warranty, if you go direct to the repair shop. What I did was call Keystone, had a great discussion and was told to have my dealer call them. Then my dealer sent me to Truck Builders who then made their estimate and sent it to my dealer, copy to me. Tim Wentz of Truck Builders says this is the only way you'll ever get any manufacturer to respond with any help. He also went on to say that the manufacturers do not want failures of their products like we've been experiencing.

While there may be some that will say that manufacturers are at fault, I differ in that these rigs were not meant to be lived in 24/7/365. They were meant for “recreation” for short vacations and weekend camping (although I can’t imagine camping in a 36 ft rv). Our rig has a lot of miles on some lousy highways. But I am only disappointed that Keystone didn't do a little better job of repairing the rig in 2004. The repair turned out to be a “quick fix” and mostly cosmetic.

I am completely satisfied with what Truck Builders did for me and although it cost me, it was well worth it. I’d still buy another Montana.

My advice to all who travel a lot and over long distances, use every bit of technology available to allow the best ride possible for your rig (and yourself) and maintain an inspection schedule of your rig to spot any malfunctions early.


Orv

[hazmic]

Orv
I have said this several times on this form and on others. Yes there are big problems on frames from all makes,not just Lippert or Keystone. The roads that we have to travel are in dire need of replacement or repair. The roads are pounding the campers to pieces and the states seem to have spent the money for other things[Iowa is rated 46th in the U.S.] Truck Builders,as I have said ,is a fine business and dose know how to repair the frames. You now have a better unit then when it was new. Kettelsens and Truck Builders are excellent business and do know how to repair things. I,like you,would highly recommend them to anyone. Some people have said that what we are saying is bunk,but now maybe they will listen. Tim instructed me how to check mine and I do this about 2 times a year and a visual more often.

[Mudchief]

Orv, sorry to hear about your problem. However it was great that you found it before you had a serious problem along the highway. You are right in that we should from time to time check for things because of the stress that is put on these large units traveling down the road.

[richfaa]

That would be a good thing to report to the NSTB. Did your EW cover the cost???

[snfexpress]

How do you check?

[rak]

Hazmic, How were you instructed to check the flex. I notice that may 3500RL flexes quite a bit going down the road.
Thanks,
Dick

[bsmeaton]

Orv - sorry to hear about the big dollar repair! Wonder how much of that was deferred as a result of your trailersaver? Couple of years maybe?

It happens all to all of them. Just read an article in Trailer Life about a Jayco owner that installed a level on his pin box and noticed it broke holes into his trailer due to excessive flex. Trailer Life told him to get it torn down and inspected.

[kerry]

I too would like to know how you are to check the flex. Kerry

[ols1932]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

That would be a good thing to report to the NSTB. Did your EW cover the cost???

Rich,
I don't believe this was a safety thing. It was more of a failure related to the age and number of miles on the unit. It's not to say that it could have become a safety issue if left unrepaired.

No, my EW expired in May and I wasn't about to renew it at a price of $2500 for a year (it's a used unit now).

Like I said in my post, I have no problem with having to make the repairs. Sure, I would rather have the money (since all the income I have is from pensions) but as Hazmic said I have a much better unit now--better structurally than when it was new.

Orv

[mobilrvn]

Before you hitch up your 5W check along the side where the frame goes down to the front landing gear. The trim along that edge where it curves will probably have no gap where it is sealed. When you put the 5W on the hitch with the weight off the landing gear, check this area again to see if it has developed a gap and how big it is. Also when you go down the road,check in the rearview mirrow and see how much the 5W is moving above the hitchpin.

[ols1932]

quote:Originally posted by snfexpress

How do you check?

The best way, I believe is to first observe the molding at the edge under the 5er overhang. You see, the front where the bedroom slide is located is the weakest part of the rig. That's why Truck Builders is so meticulous about reinforcing that part of the rig as well as under the kingpin.

Second, if you suspect frame flex, get hold of a hydraulic bottle jack, preferably a 4-ton type. Set the jack on some blocks directly under the king pin where the jack will be able to reach the king pin. Then put a piece of masking tape vertically on the front of the rig directly above the pinbox. Using a square, set it on the top of the pinbox and make a mark on the masking tape at a point that you can refer to from the square. Now begin raising the jack under the king pin until the weight is off the landing legs. Next, remembering what point on the square that you used as a reference, using that point, make another mark on the masking tape. You can measure the difference between the two marks on the masking tape and that will tell you how much flex you have. You want no more than 1/4 inch. Anything over that means you are heading for a problem.

This why so many of us had the cracks around our bedroom slide over the years. In my case, when I first had the cracks back in '04, Keystone made the repairs but they recurred because the repair was completely inadequate.

Hope this gives you some idea of how to measure the flex. You can also ask for a flex check when you have your rig in for maintenance.

Orv

[ols1932]

quote:Originally posted by bsmeaton

Orv - sorry to hear about the big dollar repair! Wonder how much of that was deferred as a result of your trailersaver? Couple of years maybe?

It happens all to all of them. Just read an article in Trailer Life about a Jayco owner that installed a level on his pin box and noticed it broke holes into his trailer due to excessive flex. Trailer Life told him to get it torn down and inspected.

Brad,
I bought the TrailerSaver after I first noticed the cracks in the fiberglass back in '03. At that time I didn't know anything about frame flex but I knew that the pounding the rig was taking was not going to help the structure any. I think the TrailerSaver helped keep the damage from getting too bad. It's hard to describe what I saw when Truck Builders reinforced our rig. The screws moving up and down as the rig was raised and lowered was a big eye opener for me.

Orv

[snfexpress]

Thank you. Now, I will be looking more closely.

[Ed and Carole]

Read about frame flex problems currently on page 23 April 8, 20073 and your are not the only one that has had a problem.

[ols1932]

quote:Originally posted by Ed and Carole

Read about frame flex problems currently on page 23 April 8, 20073 and your are not the only one that has had a problem.

Yes, there have been a lot who have had the problem. My purpose in posting was to provide a means for people to determine how much flex is permissible, how much flex they have, and what they can do about it. If the rig is out of warranty, Truck Builders in Marion, IA will do an excellent repair on it. I believe also that you'll find their hourly rate to be very, very reasonable.

But you say, "Keystone or Lippert should pay." No, not necessarily. We can't expect companies to be paying us for repairs that are done on units seven years old. The companies would go bankrupt, I believe.

Just my opinion, not gospel.

Orv

[simonsrf]

Orv,

Thank you for this valuable information.

[lightningjack11]

Thanks Orv,

Really great info. I don't use my 2000 to live in, just short vacations and weekends.

Recently I developed a small crack at the left upper side of my bedroom slide but I have not noticed any flex. I also had to make some repairs to my bedroom slide because of water entry.

I will print your post and try to do your flex check.

I removed the cover about 4 months ago and everything looked good underneath except for rust on the bedroom side so I cleaned it up and repainted with rust proofing.

I have always thought the prime culprit causing flex originated with the extended hitch pin. I feel this way because not only dos the pin force up and down motion it also causes a torque on the frame at the connection points. My dealer shoots me down but I stick to guns on this.

[hazmic]

Sorry for just getting back to everyone,out camping this weekend, but as Orv has said ,you use a framing square and measure with a load on the pin box and when the pin box has no load and there should NOT be more then a 1/4 inch. You can use your truck to do this also. Yes Truck Builders are very reasonable and they do excellent work. Yes if you check the pin box with the square and you have more then the 1/4 inch measurement ,you need to check further. Orv and I are just trying to give you good info. We have no connections with Tim at Truck Builders other then we have become very good friends with him and respect his knowledge highly.

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

quote:Originally posted by lightningjack11

Thanks Orv,

I have always thought the prime culprit causing flex originated with the extended hitch pin. I feel this way because not only does the pin force up and down motion it also causes a torque on the frame at the connection points. My dealer shoots me down but I stick to guns on this.

Lightningjack11:

Al and I totally agree with you, it is our take that the hitch pin in later model years has been shortened in part for this very reason! We are not trained engineers, so our take is just that, our take.

Also note that if you study the length from the pin and the front compartment you will find that distance has also been greatly reduced over the years, which we feel, again, our own take, further reduces stresses, and hopefully reducing frame flex.

[noneck]

Agreed, all good information here. One counter to this "reduced over-hang" is the horse trailer market with gooseneck hitch. They have rather long over-hang and carry large amounts of load...many horses, without any problems.
I feel we are confronted with Structural Engineering to minimize the weight on tow vehicle...wish they would put alittle more bracing so we can all tow without worries.