Is Ford understating payload capabilities?

[David and Jo-Anna]

[I started this thread the other night because of problems I was having trying to understand the payload ratings listed in the Ford brochure. Based on the urging of those who responded to my initial posting, I went down to the nearby Ford dealership Saturday morning and got some actual weight info on F350s. If I'm interpreting the info corrected, then Ford is significantly understating their actual payload capabilities. Given the competitive nature of the marketplace, I question whether Ford would do that, which makes me wonder if I'm analyzing the data incorrectly. See my post at 2:30 pm on 7/29 for the data I obtained and my analysis of it. To avoid confusion, I have not edited my original post, which appears below.]

I've been trying to get a better understanding of payload capabilities for various pickups in order to figure out which ones may be capable of handling whatever Monty I untimately decide to get, and I'm having trouble and sure could use some help.

For example, I've been going thru the payload/towing data page in the brochure for 2005 Ford pickups trying to get a handle on just how to use the payload figures they come up with, and I'm getting confused--as well as a bit brain dead. I'd like to run thru my analysis of one rating as a sample to see if someone can clarify and/or confirm some things for me.

On the payload page, it lists a payload of 4100# and a GVWR of 11,400 for a 2005 F350 4x4 SRW with the supercab and longbed. It is my understanding that the payload figure includes an allowance of 150# for a driver, and that you have to subtract from that payload figure the total weight of expected occupants to the extent that weight exceeds 150#. Is that correct? Does that payolad figure also include a full tank of fuel, or do I need to subtract the weight of fuel from the 4100# payload figure as well?

Would I be correct in assuming that the weight of the 4x4 option and the longbed and supercab features have already been subtracted since Ford is listing a weight rating under those headings in this table? And the weight has a footnote symbol next to it--the footnote says "6.0L/6-speed manual." Does that mean that this payload figure includes the extra weight of the 6.0L diesel engine option but not the extra weight for an automatic transmission? Any idea where I get the weight figure for the auto transmission?

I also need to figure the weight of the unloaded truck itself because in Virginia you pay higher personal property taxes on pickups whose "registered gross weight" exceeds 7500#. Any idea how I calculate, or find, the registered gross weight of this Ford configuration? If I take the GVWR of 11,400 and subtract the payload of 4100#, that gives me a figure of 7,300#. But that should include the 150# allowance for the driver. Is the registered gross weight the 7,300# figure minus 150#?

Ouch--my head is hurting. Hope a night's sleep, and/or someone who understands all this stuff, will make things easier to deal with tomorrow. Thanks for any help you can give me.

[David and Jo-Anna]

Don:

Once I get my tow vehicle next spring, I certainly intend to weigh it frequently to see what its actual payload is as I add the hitch, toolbox and other cargo. Right now, however, I'm trying to answer two questions to help me decide what tow vehicle to buy: (1) what payload will the truck be rated to handle? and (2) what (for purposes of VA taxes) is the registered gross weight of the truck?

Regarding the first question, and using the example I provided regarding a 2005 F350 4x4 SRW diesel with auto transmission, I'm trying to decide if the payload rating listed by Ford (4100#) takes into account anything other than a presumed 150# driver--i.e., do such weight ratings also take into account a full fuel tank and the 4x4 and diesel options, or do I have to deduct all those weights from the payload ratings listed by Ford in trying to determine if the rated payload of that vehicle is big enough to haul the Monty I want to buy?

As to the second question regarding registered gross weight, I have a similar question as to what weights get included in what I assume is a weight number that Ford puts on the vehicle when it sells it--either on the front door label and/or on the title.

Anyone know anything that could help me with either question?

[Montana Sky]

David,
It is my understanding that when Ford (or any of the top 3) give you a weight rating, it is just the vehicle's weight. They do not take into account a driver, fuel, additonal options, passengers and so on. Might I suggest finding a vehicle or two that you like, and while out on a test drive swing through a truck stop scale. This will give you the exact weight of the vehicle, as it weighs w/ you and your wife in it. You will then have a solid number that you can start adding to for options like a hitch, fuel(8 lbs per gal, generators, ect. You may also go and ask the dealership what is the registered VW(vehicle weight) for the specific truck. This is what the state says your truck weighs and taxes you according to it. Just a few thoughts.....

[Cat320]

David... you cannot use the brochure weights. Chevy will tell you the cargo capacity for a 3/4 is 4058, what they don't tell you is the 4058 is for a 6.0L gasser, no 4x4, no cc or ec, no lb...no nothing. A realistic cargo capacity is at least 1500 less than 4058...you can start off by subtracting 600 lb for the D/A. The other thing they don't tell you is that with the gasser, your GCWR is 16000, with the D/A it's 22000. So you can load up the gasser...and can't pull anything. With the D/A you can pull anything but can't carry much pin weight.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

To find the true weight capability of a truck, take the "The combined weight of cargo and occupants should never exceed___ pounds," from the sticker on the pillar, on the left rear door, entitled "Tire and Loading Information." That is the maximum weight you can put in your truck...cargo, pax, fuel, hitch, tools, etc. Here are several real examples I've taken from trucks on lots:

Chev/GMC 2500HD, D/A, CC, 4x4, SB: 2325, 2300, 2420

Chev/GMC 2500HD, D/A, EC, 4x4, SB: 2600

Ford F250, PSD, CC, 4x4, SB: 2507.

Visit the lot, check the sticker...then, and only then, will you know what a truck's true cargo capacity is.

[Wrenchtraveller]

Your truck will have a GVWR inside the driver's door.

Everything .........everything you add to the truck including factory options will reduce your payload. Payload equals the total weight of the truck minus the GVWR.

Example. You buy a Ford diesel SRW with an 11400 GVWR. Both you guys in the truck, your pets, your fuel, your hitch weigh in at 8000 pounds. The truck has 11400 minus 8000 = 3400 pounds of payload left for your fifth wheel hitch .

[mobrownies]

I don't have any Ford info, but the 11,400 lbs sounds like a dually rating, not a single rear wheel which might be on the order of 9,800 to 10,200.

[David and Jo-Anna]

In response to the suggestions above, I went down to the nearby Ford dealership this afternoon to get some actual vehicle weights so I could calculate actual payloads for the F350s. My analysis of the results I got suggest that Ford is understating the payload ratings, and the towing capabilities, of its F350s. Since I don't think Ford would give up that marketing edge, I'm wondering whether I'm looking at the numbers wrong. Here is what I got.

The shipping weight for a 2007 F350 Supercab, longbed, 4x4, SRW diesel with auto transmission and a number of other options is 6912#. The GVWR for this vehicle is 11,400. That to me means its gross payload (before deducting for other truck options, occupants, fuel, cargo, pin wt, etc) is 4488#. Since this shipping weight actually includes several other options (including tow command, stabilizer pkg, and extra heavy duty alternator), I would expect the brochure payload rating for the base vehicle to be even higher. However, the Ford brochure lists a payload rating of only 4100#, 388# less. And this rating is for the payload of a manual transmission vehicle (Ford does not list the payload ratings for auto transmission versions). Since the automatic transmission option is reportedly heavier than the manual (I don't know by how much, and neither did the Ford dealer's commercial account manager--does anyone know?), the rated payload for the automatic version should be even lower than the 4100# listed in the brochure, rather than the 4388# actual payload. So is Ford significantly understating its payload capabilities, or can someone show me where I am screwing up in my analysis?

And when I look at Ford's GCVWR numbers, things get even nuttier. For starters, the GCVWR for F350 diesels is the same for those with 3.73 axle ratios as for those with 4.10 ratios--why doesn't the 4.10 have a higher listed tow capacity? And the GCVWR and towing capacity numbers for manual and auto transmissions for F350 diesels are virtually the same--since the auto is heavier, shouldn't the tow capacity of the manuals be higher? And finally, I would expect the listed tow capacity to be equal to the difference between the GCVWR and the weight of the the basic tow vehicle (with only the "required equipment and a 150# driver"). Accordingly, I would expect the tow capacity for the F350 4x4 SRW to be at least 15,938# (GCVWR of 23,000# minus 6912# actual TV weight minus 150# allowance for the driver), yet Ford lists the tow capacity as only 15,600#. Why give up claiming another 300-400# of tow capacity?

Sorry to get so heavy into the numbers, but I'm trying to find out whether I'm missing something basic here. Anyone see what I'm missing?

[Cat320]

Don't want to get picky...but the correct acronym is GCWR...not GCVWR.

Chevy is the same as Ford re the weights. Don't look at the shipping weight. Even though I've done countless hours of research, I still cannot figure out where that number originates. However, the ship weight will be lighter than the actual weight...thus giving you the impression you have more cargo capacity than you really have. Get the cargo capacity weight from the sticker I noted in my earlier post, subtract it from the GVWR...that is your true weight for that truck, and that truck only.

I only did limited research on Fords. What I did learn is that they are much heavier than Chevy...about 700 lbs for a 3/4 diesel. In my cargo weights in the earlier post, Ford has about 100 lb increase in cargo over the Chevy, but it's GVWR is 10000 compared to 9200.

The Ford guys will have to address Ford's GCWR logic.

You sound like me when I was doing my research...the damn numbers just would not come out like they should, and numbers don't lie!! When you are through this little drill, you will know more about this stuff than 99% of the order takers out there (sometimes called salesmen).

[richfaa]

Just a note..The shipping weight on the X plan invoice of the Ford F-350 in my signature including 13 US gallons of Gas is listed as 6404 lbs. I later weighed that same truck with a full tank of fuel and a 16K draw tite installed.no people in it at 7350lbs a difference of 946 Lbs..That does not compute....

[H. John Kohl]

I am sure there are those that will disagree with me as indicated by their previous post.

It is my opinion the specifications on the vehicle doors are solely for manufacture warranty legality. Now that does not say that a lawyer for another individual will not use these specs if there is an accident involving your vehicle and you have exceeded them greatly. Greatly is defined by the lawyer using the figures. (Figures lie and lier's figure.) Yes we know each vehicle has their limitations. The comment above about different rear ends yet the same GCVWR is a perfect example.

quote - And when I look at Ford's GCVWR numbers, things get even nuttier. For starters, the GCVWR for F350 diesels is the same for those with 3.73 axle ratios as for those with 4.10 ratios--why doesn't the 4.10 have a higher listed tow capacity? end quote

With my Dodge the 3.73 rear end has a GCVWR of 21000 yet the 4.10 has 23000.

Personally I do pay more attention to the axle weights and the bed weight of the tow vehicle. The GCVWR is the one that seems to be a catch all. The most important thing to me is being safe and ensuring your trailer brakes will do their job. If you loose them then it is all on the TV to bring the "LOAD" to a stop.

As we have seen by many postings here. There are a lot of people towing their Monty with 2500 (3/4 ton) pickups and they have a lot of miles under their tires.

This does not clear up the confusion but may shed light as to why it is so confusing.

Thanks for reading. Good luck and tow safe.

[Wrenchtraveller]

quote:Originally posted by mobrownies

I don't have any Ford info, but the 11,400 lbs sounds like a dually rating, not a single rear wheel which might be on the order of 9,800 to 10,200.

In 04 all the SRW one tons were 9900 GVWR.

In 05 Ford raised the bar again and increased the ratings big time but this time Ford went model and engine specific. My 05 F350 SRW because it is a V10 has an 11200 GVWR.
The same model with a diesel is 11400 GVWR. I win in payload because a PSD weighs 500 pounds more than a V10. I gain 300 pounds of payload.
Note these GROSS VEHICLE WEIGHT RATINGS have dick all to do with rear end ratios. This is what Ford says this model can carry without voiding warranty. They make the vehicle. They can make the rules.

Gross Combined Weight Rating is a different animal and it is affected by rear end ratio. The SRW Ford PSDS all come with 3.73s and get the max. combined rating. My V10 only has a 21000 pound combined rating because I have 4.10s. The V10 has to rev to make power. It is not the torque monster that the diesel is.
If I had 4.30s I would have the same combined rating as the PSD........ 23000 pounds.

I do have a lot of patience for truck buyers understanding the way the two Ratings work and how a Fiver must meet both to comply with Ford's rules. The reason I have this patience is because I have known many Ford salesmen who still don't know how the ratings work.

Montanas are Keystone's larger line. They were built for one tons.

Cougars,Laredos, etc have many smaller units that were built for 3/4 tons. Flame suit on and here we go again.

[Cat320]

Wrenchtraveller..."Montanas are Keystone's larger line. They were built for one tons.

Cougars, Raptors, etc have many smaller units that were built for 3/4 tons."

Exactly correct...anybody looking for a TV for a Montana should read and heed.

[CountryGuy]

Don, I have seen some Raptors I would not feel real comfy with a 3/4 ton. And, I am just a chick!!! That big monster Raptor has 3 axles doesn't it??? That is what I remember anyway. Their 5er with model number 3814 SS is 11445 pounds, with carrying capacity of 4055 and a length of 39 foot 7 inches (that is published, wonder how long it REALLY is???) It carries 110 gallons of fresh water and the garage is 14 foot long. Think I'de want at least a 1 ton with duel tires to yank that baby around! Hitch weight is 2740 by the way. But WHAT A RIG, EHHHH????

Carol

[Wrenchtraveller]

I edited my post to say, Cougars, Laredos, Etc. Carol is right those Raptors should be called Dinosaurs..........they are big.

[David and Jo-Anna]

Don--Flame Suit? You are sooooooooooooo bad!!! Behave yourself--I don't want the Invisible Hand closing down another thread of mine.

And Cat 320, don't you go encouraging him!!! LOL!!!

[Wrenchtraveller]

Cat and I are proof that Ford and Chev guys can get along. I did drive a new Chev Duramax /Allison loaded up Siverado before I ordered my 05 Ford. The Chev was a beautiful truck and rode far better than any Ford I have ever driven. I have said it before and I'll say it again, I am brand loyal to the point of being stupid. I hope that new Ford 6.4 coming out in the 08 models is a great diesel like the Duramax and the Cummins. My 04 sick litre was a dissapointment for the 8 months I suffered ownership and David and Jo-Anna, I would rather see you happy in a Chev that sad in a Ford so really shop around. Ford will pump as many 6.0s out as it can right to the end and they will keep their own salespeople in the dark on the big improvements offered by the 6.4 They did this back in early 94 when the 7.3 PSD with Direct Injection was a little slow coming on line and they were losing too many sales to the Turbo Cummins. They through a turbo on the old 7.3 IDI ( in direct injection ) engine. People bought them thinking they were getting the latest engine and 6 months later the DI PSD came out. People were livid.
Honest salesmen were furious with Ford and I think that all 3 of them wrote nasty letters to head office. If you want a Ford wait 8 months for the 6.4. It will be worth the wait IMHO. I am active on Ford sites and all indications are this 6.4 will be awesome.

I am happy with my V10 because I only tow about 3500 hundred miles a year and in that amount of driving it would take over 15 years to get back the extra cost of a diesel. I am 55 now and I hope to get 10 more years out of my V10. The good Lord willing I may buy one more new truck and it might be a diesel.

[sreigle]

David, my 2005 brochure says Ford assumes two 150 lb passengers (passenger and driver). Payload is how much you can load in the rig. It includes all gear, toolboxes, hitch, pinweight, additional people or additional weight over 150 for the first two.

My understanding is a full load of fluids, including fuel, has been figured in but I have no ready source for proof of that. Just what I read somewhere.

The numbers listed as 4x4 and supercab have already figured that weight.

We are in an overnight site for tonight so have not fully set up and I can't easily get to my brochure but I **think** the numbers are listed with the engine and transmission. If I recall there's one table for automatics and another for manuals. That may just be the tow rating tables though. Will have to check when I can get to the brochure.

If VA is like KS and SD, they'll register you based on the GVWR on the door jamb. That's the 11,400 number. Or they will use the weight shown on the title. That will be the weight of the truck as it left the factory. The supercab F350 will be close but possibly just below that 7500 number on the title weight. I doubt they'll use any number you calculate. They will use Ford's number, either the GVWR or the title weight, depending on how their law reads.

The 4.10 axle truck can tow more weight behind it but cannot handle more weight in the bed than can the truck with the 3.73 axle. The payload is independent of axle ratio. Ability to pull is affected by axle ratio.

Good luck. The 6.0 powerstroke is one tremendous towing machine.

Also, I disagree on the 3/4 ton vs 1 ton. Payload capacity and ratings are what's important, not whether it's 3/4 ton or 1 ton. My 3/4 ton has higher ratings on gvwr, gcwr, and tow than most of the SRW 1 tons on the road. You cannot these days say 3/4 ton is less capable than a 1 ton. That just doesn't compute any more.

The reason the Ford for 2005 and later has the higher numbers is it uses the same frame design, material, and strength as the F450/F550, has the same front end control arms as the F450/F550 (on the 4x4's), and has much larger brakes than in prior years (the reason 17 inch wheels are now the standard on the Fords.) That's the reason my 2005 F250 has tow rating of 15,400, GVWR of 10,000, and GCWR of 23,000. My 2003 F350 had numbers, respectively, of 14,200, 9,900 and 20,000. Both are diesel automatics.

Last, we turned 61,000 on our 2005 6.0 powerstroke today and I'm still very pleased with it. Ford took long enough to get the bugs out of the 6.0 but it's an awesome towing engine now. Too bad it doesn't meet the new emission standards. I plan to have this one for a very long time. Note, I also had one of the early 2003's and it had the stalling problems until they finally got that fixed. It then was awesome. In my opinion, anyone bypassing a late model 6.0 because of the early problems is missing out on a great towing engine.

[Wrenchtraveller]

The higher GVWR on the 05 and newer Ford Superduties were a result of Ford adding another 300 pounds to the already heavy truck so it was not all gain and as Cat has stated some lighter GVWR Chevs can have just as large a payload.

My 05 F350 4x4 CC LB V10 has an 11200 GVWR and weighs 500 pounds less than the same model with a PSD and an 11400 pound GVWR. This gives me a 300 pound larger payload and my tuck with the much smaller 2955RL ends up weighing 11080 pounds with the trailer on it. If it were an F250 with the new 10000 pound GVWR it would be over 1000 pounds over it's rating.

If it were a diesel it would be slightly over it's rating.

People admit their F250s are over on the GVWR and are comfortable but yet seemed to be concerned
if they overload their coach. Go figure.

Another comment on the 6.0 PSD. That engine's early replacement is driven more by excessive warranty costs than any other reasons. Notice Duramax and Cummins are keeping the same engine and meeting emmision standards. The number of variable vane turbos that Ford has put in the 6.0 under warranty is killing the profit. My own 6.0's turbo was showing signs of wear and my tech wanted to change it out. Ford said no, just changed the solonoid that moved the vanes. That worn turbo is a smoking gun and at 5000 bucks a pop, there will be many 6.0 owners digging deep into their pockets down the road. The new 6.4 has dual fixed vane turbos and Ford will breathe a corporate sigh of relief when the last lemon 6.0 is off warranty.

[David and Jo-Anna]

Fortunately for me, in terms of VA personal property taxes, the state gets its "registered gross weight" figure from the dealer, and the dealer uses the shipping weight on the invoice. So to the extent that the shipping weight figure understates the actual weight, it helps me avoid the higher VA personal property tax for vehicles with a registered gross weight over 7500#. Even a heavily loaded 2007 F350 DRW CC 4x4 with lots of options only has a shipping invoice weight of 7389#.

[David and Jo-Anna]

Rich--I agree that the difference between your shipping weight and your actual weight does not compute. But I wonder if your actual payload computes better when considered in light of the brochure's claimed payload.

The 2006 Ford brochure puts the purported payload for a F350 DRW CC LB with 4x2, V-10 and MANUAL transmission at 5800#. Assuming you have the automatic transmission, that would drop the payload by perhaps 200# to 5600#. Deduct the weight of your other options and let's say you drop another 100# to 5500#.

You report an actual weight of 7350# with a full tank of fuel and your hitch. If you deduct about 250# for 38 gallons of fuel and say 150# for your hitch, that would put your weight around 6950#. The GVWR in the Ford brochure for the F350 4x2 (I assume you have the 4x2) is 12,600#. Subtracting your actual weight (without fuel or hitch) of 6950# leaves your actual payload at 5650#, which is very close to the 5500# adjusted payload figure we get from the Ford brochure. So maybe that Ford number is not so far off the mark even though they don't tell us how they got it.

Has anyone else ever compared their actual payload to the figures in the manufacturers' brochure to see how good the advertised payload figures were?