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Old 02-20-2021, 11:33 AM   #21
Camp CA
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............My question is, is there anyway to foresee a black ice condition, besides not driving while it's cold or snowing outside?.............
In my experience..........no. Forecasting pavement temperatures and conditions is difficult but not impossible. When predicting black ice conditions you need to consider four major factors: air temperature, sun, moisture and the amount of heat beneath the pavement.

Black ice is particularly an issue where the weather may be too warm for snow, but the ground temperature is cold enough to convert rain or sleet into ice. The ground temperature can cause the precipitation to freeze upon impact, thus creating ice. Black ice can also be created from sleet or the refreezing of snow or water. It is extremely difficult to spot since it looks like asphalt. Black ice most often forms when temperatures are the lowest, typically between sunset and sunrise. During the day, the best thing to do before getting in your vehicle is to look at the pavement. If the pavement is dry but you are seeing spots of pavement that look dark and glossy, that is probably going to be black ice so its best to postpone travel.
 
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Old 02-20-2021, 12:41 PM   #22
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Black ice is fairly common here from freezing rain, freezing drizzle, freezing mist, and even freezing fog. Most common on bridges and elevated roadways if temp is just below freezing. But also on any surface if temp drops more than a few degrees below freezing.

Sometimes looks wet. Sometimes a little glossy. Sometimes the pavement just looks a little darker than normal. And to make it more difficult is that it may be a mixture of the above with many areas not frozen at all. Then you can get a little over confident thinking the road is fine and suddenly find yourself sliding sideways.

I have driven it periodically all my 60 driving years. But still try to stay off unless absolutely necessary. Once, traffic came to a stop in front of me. When I came to a full stop, my truck hesitated a few seconds and then began sliding sideways onto the shoulder of the road as the pavement sloped very slightly that way. That is slick. And nothing you can do.
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Old 02-20-2021, 08:41 PM   #23
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Black ice is predictable (watch what's happening around you and the forecasted weather) and generally observable if you know what to look for and pay attention.

"Wet" surfaces (mist/drizzle etc.) are shiny on the road surface. When it freezes it becomes dull; just look at your headlights on the road surface; you just have to pay attention vs just "drive along". When it becomes apparent there are road changes, depending on where I am and the situation, I slow down and tap my brakes (knowing I can control it) to see if anything wants to "let go", or, if a stop and go situation just gas it a bit and see if the drive wheels want to spin; in either case....you have ice. Done that for 70+ years (30 driving 100k a year) and never had a mishap and knew what was under me.
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Old 02-21-2021, 05:42 AM   #24
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Seems like they should of known there could be some ice coming, the truck in the pics has ice buildup behind the rear wheels ,evidence of driving in icy conditions? Am I missing something, glad everyone was ok.

On second look, i think that buildup is from being towed with front wheels up. WOW. I cant believe they didnt put that on a flat bed!
good lick getting a flat bed to tow a totaled truck in an ice storm in Texas
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Old 02-21-2021, 01:25 PM   #25
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Be Careful

Thanks for sharing. A good reminder to be careful out there. Nothing makes me pucker up more than a slick highway. We get that out here in Colorado.
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Old 02-21-2021, 01:48 PM   #26
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We are Winter Texans, staying in the Houston area this winter. We are native Vermonters now living in Connecticut. There isn't anyone within 100 miles who knows how to drive on ice and snow. But even after saying that, my choice would be to NOT drive if there is a chance of slippery conditions. Maybe if I needed to save a life. And there is definitely no chance that I would do any towing when it is slippery.

There is a temperature display inside the F350, and we go on red alert when the temperature goes down close to 32 degrees and it is wet. Water plus freezing temp => ICE!!
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Old 02-21-2021, 01:52 PM   #27
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Where I drive, when roads are icy or covered in snow, chains are required on TV drive axial AND on one braking axial of trailer. Also, south Texan was not a goog place to drive based on the weather reports out last week.
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Old 02-21-2021, 01:59 PM   #28
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My only advice living in Tahoe at 6,800 feet, is to not be the first people on the road. I watch the weather, and always wait until the maintenance people have had a chance to do their thing. Especially if you are going to be towing a 5th wheel, I might wait until the next day, or not go at all, unless the weather and temps are going to be good. For sure I only tow in daylight, so I have a fighting chance to see what might be coming ahead! I know this is 2020 hindsight, but it is what I do to avoid a slippery road. Let other people experience before you get there.
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Old 02-21-2021, 02:46 PM   #29
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Having grown up in Michigan and now living in Texas since 80, I have had my share of discovering I am on black ice. If you find yourself in potential icy road conditions do NOT use cruise control and slow way, way down. If you hit ice your ONLY option is to not panic, steer straight ahead, do not accelerate or use the break. Problem is when you let off the accelerator, your transmission will drag for a while before it neutralizes, and can cause your rear tires to lose traction. This can start your slide out of control , and if you are towing, start your jackknife. If you have presents of mind, put your vehicle in neutral as fast as you can, steer straight ahead, and COAST to a stop, or very slow speed. Since there is no forward drive or transmission drag, your wheels will roll freely and help you maintain control. Put your vehicle back in gear when you have slowed down to a crawl, and creep forward if you can maintain control. In some situations you may have a very small amount of traction to steer ahead and not lose control. If you are on a hill where gravity will pull you over the ice, not much you can do. Best move is to get off or stay off the road and wait for them to improve.
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Old 02-21-2021, 02:52 PM   #30
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Newtons law states that anything moving forward will remain moving forward if not interrupted. Thus, if black ice is suspected you should proceed straight ahead without applying brakes or steering. This requires you to look much further ahead and when encountering conditions that require you to slow down you must plan to do that way ahead of time. If there are turns up ahead you have to slow down way before you get there and just anticipate that you will have no friction in the turn. Remember if you’re going straight ahead it doesn’t matter if you are on black Ice or not it’s when you change direction or try to stop you get it trouble
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Old 02-21-2021, 02:55 PM   #31
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We had the same thing happen to us in Idaho on our way south a few years back. I noticed the 5th wheel coming around at right angles and said to my wife, "This is going to be interesting." I reached down and pulled only the trailer brakes on, and thankfully, the 5th slowly went back where it belonged. After that, I was not ever over 30mph for about 50 miles.
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Old 02-21-2021, 03:13 PM   #32
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Don't drive until the black ice is gone...not worth the risk, short of a medical emergency.
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Old 02-21-2021, 05:37 PM   #33
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We trained our fire department engineers on a wet skid pad. They learned that any speed over 25 mph would result in loss of directional control. 2 mph faster than 25 would make the fire truck unable to track straight. The pictures provided of the accident site, were visually predictive of very slippery conditions, as opposed to frozen water on top of a black surface. Slow speed, leaving lots of room between yourself and the vehicle ahead, and gentle use of the trailer brake controller in lieu of the truck's brakes, might have helped to avoid the trailer passing up the truck. I like some the posts best, that suggest to find a place to park. Praying for your nerves to settle and to desire to return to the road again.
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Old 02-21-2021, 05:57 PM   #34
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I think it is prudent to turn off your cruise control and exhaust brake if there is any chance of icy / slick roads. be safe. joe.
Just curious, but do you typically use cruise control when your towing? Seems like a bad idea to me, so is this common?
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Old 02-21-2021, 06:29 PM   #35
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We have occasion to travel when black ice conditions are possible. I use an infrared thermometer, point it at the roadway to monitor the surface temp and most likely ice won’t form if the surface is consistent at 35 degrees F or above. If air temp begins to fall the roadway can cool so checking the surface temp more often makes sense.
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Old 02-21-2021, 11:33 PM   #36
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We have been in Texas for the last couple of Snows that they had. The first one we were just north of the snow but Saw the remnants when we went to Lake Whitney,
Then we moved down to Lake Medina and this has been a rough ride. We were without water for 5 days. (Pipe froze underground.) We stayed warm in the RV and only went out when we were out of something. Then we picked our days to avoid the bad road conditions. We are from Iowa so driving on the snow is not foreign to me but The Texas Folk...It is a whole new world.
I hate to sound mean but the key to Black Ice is...Stay off it. They put out warnings days in advance of the snow storm and predicted pretty accurately the amounts and the Temperature during these days. From what I saw in this campground was Everyone Bundling up to ride out the storm. No one took the chance on the Black Ice, Wind and Cold. Years ago in the Army when we had Cold Weather training when it got as bad as it was the past week in Texas we bundled up and stayed safe.
I am glad they didn't get hurt but they really have a messed up rig. I hope they come out alright with the insurance.
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Old 02-22-2021, 12:56 AM   #37
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Glad they were okay.
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Old 02-22-2021, 05:54 AM   #38
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We are Winter Texans, staying in the Houston area this winter. We are native Vermonters now living in Connecticut. There isn't anyone within 100 miles who knows how to drive on ice and snow. But even after saying that, my choice would be to NOT drive if there is a chance of slippery conditions. Maybe if I needed to save a life. And there is definitely no chance that I would do any towing when it is slippery.

There is a temperature display inside the F350, and we go on red alert when the temperature goes down close to 32 degrees and it is wet. Water plus freezing temp => ICE!!

100 miles the state od Texas can't drive in snow!

The first mistake people make is they think and rationalize that they can drive on black ice.

The second mistake is they go out and prove themselves wrong.
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:56 AM   #39
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My question is, is there anyway to foresee a black ice condition, besides not driving while it's cold or snowing outside? I've never encountered it while driving.
To the question, can one foresee black ice.

100% absolutely
'Black ice' is clear ice, which some people don't notice it's present until its to late.

At the end of the day, stay aware of the road conditions and watch for them to change. The crazy slippery ice happens when the temps are near freezing. Either rain turning to ice on the road surface or blowing snow melting then re-freezing to a warmer road surface.

When the conditions are possible for ice. Keep the engine brake off, don't use cruise and be very aware when you transition between protected areas and unprotected areas of wind. Like going under an overpass on the interstate or passing / being passed by a semi, those transitions can cause a bunch of issue if a side wind present.

If it 'seems' slippery, just slow down. Speed is what will get you in trouble on ice.

I've grown up and lived my entire life in ND / MN pulling all sorts of trailers in the winter. When ice is possible adjust your speed accordingly. A couple weeks ago I delivered a tracked jeep to up near the Canadian border. Started out the trip at 75mph, ended the return trip at 35mph on the same stretch of interstate. Clear road on the way out, all iced up on the return.
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Old 02-22-2021, 06:30 PM   #40
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To the question, can one foresee black ice.

100% absolutely
'Black ice' is clear ice, which some people don't notice it's present until its to late.
Amen!

I always have had trouble with the term "Black Ice". To me it is used by folks who end up in trouble and need a way to make it "Not my fault" because after all it was "Black Ice" that got me and in no way could I have avoided it. In all reality, it's just darn slippery roads that you need to drive appropriately on.

I make my living driving and in 40 years on the road, driving an 18 wheel, 65' long, very light van (1/2 miles empty) in upper midwest winters, I have learned to "read" the road conditions long before I need to react to them. Can't really say how I do it, I guess it's just experience and the feel of the steering and applied power to the ground that are giving you information every second you are moving.

When it get's crazy icy, especially if ANY wind is present, I will take off my right shoe and run the throttle pedal with my big toe. I'm serious! Apply just a minuscule amount of too much power and your drive tires go sideways. Let too much power off the same way, even without any engine brake turned on, and just the engine slowing down will produce the same results.

Someone earlier mentioned having "neutral" power... neither too much acceleration, nor deceleration. There is a very small window in the middle that you need to stay in when conditions like that are present. The scariest thing for me is going down a big grade on ice. I will start off the top of a hill at 20 mph and be up to 50 or 60 before I get to the bottom just because there is no way to slow it down without chaos.

The second scariest thing is what someone is going to do when they get close to me. Car or truck. If something goes wrong for them, it is likely all over for me too. I've had cars pass me, get a blast of wind when they get in front of me and lose control. I've always been lucky to avoid a collision, but had a few close calls.

I feel for you folks down south who are not accustomed to driving in snow and on ice. It is for sure an acquired skill and when you find yourself thrust into it with nowhere to go, you either need to learn fast or get off the road. Sitting conditions like that out somewhere may well save you lost of property, or your life!

Oh... Full disclosure here... I am very comfortable in my semi truck in all kinds of weather conditions. I know how it will react and how to handle it. IF I were pulling my 5'er with my pickup or driving a class A... I would be scared to death and likely pull over and wait it out. I sure don't have the experience hearding that thing down the road in bad conditions. It is parked all winter!
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