Running out of hot water - Montana Owners Club

JacknBetsy · 02-19-2009, 04:21 PM

We have the 10th anniversary edition 3400 and love it! However we do seem to run out of hot water more frequently than we did in our previous unit (2007 3475). Does the larger tank take longer to heat or could it be an issue with the heating element? Any suggestions are appreciated!

FLSTS03 · 02-19-2009, 04:30 PM

JacknBetsy, 1st thing off the top of my head is in our '06 3400RL we have a outside switch and an indoor panel breaker that could be the culprit.Next the element itself could be bad(ohm it out to test). Just a couple of things assuming your propane is functioning ok. Steve

bsmeaton · 02-19-2009, 05:25 PM

I would agree with FLSTS03. Check the hot water element. The electric element most likely would either work or not work, I don't think they can partially fail.

I wonder too if it could be the temperature setting (not sure if you even can change the temperature). I know on the stick house I turned the tanks down once to conserve energy. It only took a couple of days and the DW complained she was running out of hot water every once in a while. I had no idea the temp made that much of a difference, but if you consider the higher the tank temp the less water you atually need to draw from the tank for a warm shower, it makes sense. I turned the tanks back up and the complaints went away.

Another thing it might be is flow from your shower or kitchen. Not likely, but maybe the flow through the new shower head is much greater than the old rig?

JacknBetsy · 02-20-2009, 03:43 AM

The element checks out fine. The outside switch is on at the tank. The propane works. There is a switch in the hallway in the 2009 that is also on. When we first got the unit we had no hot water (when using electricity - propane worked). We had a disconnected wire in the switch on the wall which was fixed under warranty. The electric switch in the panel box is also on. I'm just wondering if the element should be bigger or hotter to send more heat to the larger tank? It just seems odd that we run out of hot water quicker with the larger tank (12 gal) than we did with the smaller (6 gal) one.

NCFischers · 02-20-2009, 05:51 AM

Two things to check, Turn the circuit breaker to the water heater off and back on to make sure it hasn't tripped. The outdoor switch on my unit is on when it looks like it is off. When the side with the hole for the pin is out, the switch is off.
One more thing, when you ohm out the element to see if it has burned out, the wires need to be disconnected or you will get a false reading. Good luck.

TLightning · 02-20-2009, 07:13 AM

From what I understand, there is to way to adjust the water temp...it is set at the factory.

SlickWillie · 02-20-2009, 08:27 AM

Hmmmm, interesting, as we have noticed our water gets hotter when running it on propane. We always run propane and electric when showering. Hotter water equals less used. I looked in the online parts catalog at PPL Motorhomes, and our water heater, a Suburban SW10DE has either 130* or 140* thermostat/limit switch assemblies available. I suppose the 120V may be 130*, and the 12V 140*.

FLSTS03 · 02-20-2009, 09:49 AM

Ok good everything seems to be ok mechanically, try seeing how long it takes to fill a 5 gal. bucket with hot water just to see what the flow from your showerhead is del'ring. Typically 70% of the tank is usable hot water and assuming winter time incoming cold water avg mix should be 70%hot/30%cold. With this example, a 12 gal tank should provide 8.4 gals of hot water and with a 70/30 mix one could expect 12 gals of hot water outside recovery. So with a shower @ 2.5 gpm you get 4.8 min shower before water starts to need recovery, @4.0 gpm your looking @ a 3.o min shower and so on. I don't have my manual with me but I'm thinking somewhere between 10 & 15 gph recovery or 2gal every 10 mins. on avg. I'll post a test for hot water next.

Steve

FLSTS03 · 02-20-2009, 10:03 AM

I have the test in a pdf file, for those intrested email me. The test is designed for a full size tub but you'll get the picture and adapt for your tana. I would post the file here but I'm not sure how. Steve

hazmic · 02-20-2009, 10:15 AM

Are the other propane appliances working probably? We have a 10 gal water heater and have no problems after the tech that knows how to set the pressure set it. DO NOT SET THE REGULAR unless you are knowable on how to do this. Everything worked OK but after setting the regulator the appliances work much better.

iowaone · 02-20-2009, 12:35 PM

I think there must be some problem but I don't know what it is. I have the same setup and have never run out of hot water when we shower even if dishwashing at same time. I usually have both the gas and electric on. It is very hot when it has not been used for a while. We have restricted the flow on the shower some but sometimes use the tub for the grandsons which uses water very fast.

KTManiac · 02-20-2009, 01:19 PM

We just do the European shower deal. Get hair wet, turn off water, shampoo, rinse head, turn off water, soap up upper torso and arms, rinse, turn off water, soap up lower half and feet, rinse head to toe. Done! Two gallons Max. of water used. Of course, we dry camp mostly, so we sort of have to do it that way. Also, starting out, we turn on just the hot water valve and capture the water from the tub fixture into a suitable container until it runs hot, and save it for other stuff (like dog water, etc.) instead of letting it go to waste straight to the grey water tank.

JacknBetsy · 02-20-2009, 01:25 PM

I have noticed that occasionally the pressure valve has released pressure from the tank. If the valve is not regulated correctly, could it be releasing pressure before all the water is heated?

Thanks for everyone's help with this puzzle!

JacknBetsy · 02-20-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by KTManiac

We just do the European shower deal. Get hair wet, turn off water, shampoo, rinse head, turn off water, soap up upper torso and arms, rinse, turn off water, soap up lower half and feet, rinse head to toe. Done! Two gallons Max. of water used. Of course, we dry camp mostly, so we sort of have to do it that way. Also, starting out, we turn on just the hot water valve and capture the water from the tub fixture into a suitable container until it runs hot, and save it for other stuff (like dog water, etc.) instead of letting it go to waste straight to the grey water tank.

HA - we were fully prepared to shower European style - then were pleasantly surprised that we didn't run out of hot water with our first Montana. Had we not had that experience we probably wouldn't even realize the water wasn't staying hot long enough in the new one!

SlickWillie · 02-20-2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by JacknBetsy

I have noticed that occasionally the pressure valve has released pressure from the tank. If the valve is not regulated correctly, could it be releasing pressure before all the water is heated?

Thanks for everyone's help with this puzzle!

I emailed Suburban a year or so ago about TP valve leaking occasionally. They say it is normal. They advised to drain the tank down some and let it get air in the top again. I took this as room for the water to expand. Now, I have never had a TP leak at my stick house without being defective, so don't ask me if I believe that. BTW, that valve does not weep water when we have the heater just on the electric mode.

Waynem · 02-20-2009, 03:05 PM

I'm just going to assume that Jack posted the original and say:

Jack, Take the first shower!!!!!

FLSTS03 · 02-20-2009, 03:40 PM

[quote]Originally posted by JacknBetsy

"I have noticed that occasionally the pressure valve has released pressure from the tank. If the valve is not regulated correctly, could it be releasing pressure before all the water is heated? "

Yes that very well could be some of your problem. If you are seeing water from the T&P valve then one of three things are happening, (1) the valve is faulty and needs replacing (2) pressure is at the max causing the T&P to trip;check your pressure regulator (3) temp is at max(steam can sometime be seen) and your thermostat/eco is faulty-replace. Whether or not this is the main cause of you hot water issues you still need to see why the T&P valves is triping. Safety issue if the T&P does not trip and if you have ever seen a 40 gal gas water heater explode from not working T&P valve you won't forget it. A faulty t'stat could be the root of your hot water shortage.. Steve

SlickWillie · 02-20-2009, 03:53 PM

[quote]quote:Originally posted by FLSTS03

Quote:

Originally posted by JacknBetsy

"I have noticed that occasionally the pressure valve has released pressure from the tank. If the valve is not regulated correctly, could it be releasing pressure before all the water is heated? "

Yes that very well could be some of your problem. If you are seeing water from the T&P valve then one of three things are happening, (1) the valve is faulty and needs replacing (2) pressure is at the max causing the T&P to trip;check your pressure regulator (3) temp is at max(steam can sometime be seen) and your thermostat/eco is faulty-replace. Whether or not this is the main cause of you hot water issues you still need to see why the T&P valves is triping. Safety issue if the T&P does not trip and if you have ever seen a 40 gal gas water heater explode from not working T&P valve you won't forget it. A faulty t'stat could be the root of your hot water shortage.. Steve

From the Suburban site:

Question 5
Why does water drip from my water heater's pressure relief and temperature valve?

Answer:
You may experience water weeping or dripping from your water heater's pressure and temperature (P&T) relief valve when your water heater is operating. Water weeping or dripping does not mean that the P&T valve is defective. As water is heated, it expands. The water system in a recreational vehicle is a closed system and does not allow for the expansion of heated water. When the pressure of the water system exceeds the relieving point of the P&T valve, the vale will relieve the excess pressure.

One way to reduce the frequency of this occurrence is to maintain an air pocket at the top of the water heater tank. This air pocket will form in the tank by design - however, it will be reduced over time by the everyday use of your water heater. To replenish this air pocket:

1. Turn off the water heater.
2. Turn off the cold water supply line.
3. Open a faucet in the RV.
4. Pull out the handle of the pressure relief (P&T) valve and allow water to flow from the valve until it stops.
5. Release the handle on the P&T valve - it should snap closed.
6. Close the faucet and turn on the cold water supply. As the tank fills, the air pocket will develop. Repeat this procedure as often as needed to reduce the frequency of the weeping P&T valve. If the weeping persists after following this procedure, you may elect to have your dealer install an expansion or accumulator tank in the cold water line between the tank and check valve to relieve the pressure caused by thermal expansion.

This is about the same answer they sent me by email.

JacknBetsy · 02-20-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Waynem

I'm just going to assume that Jack posted the original and say:

Jack, Take the first shower!!!!!

Ha! You know what they say...if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!

FLSTS03 · 02-20-2009, 05:02 PM

Will,I agree with the factory about thermal expansion and a closed system, but a T&P valve is still considered a safety relief valve by most and should be treated as such(old school in me). While thermal expansion could be the culprit for a weeping T&P valve, Jacks comment about released pressure caused me to speculate/assume beyond a simple weep or drip ,mainly because of his shortage of hot water.
Your post did get me thinking why Keystone, as well as all mfgs, don't just go ahead and install a thermal expansion device as a necessary part of the hot water system(IBC code on a stick house) and where in the heck is the check valve on the Monty's fresh water system that makes this a closed system. Steve

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