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Old 08-15-2022, 11:18 AM   #1
MAWilsonPE
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Super Duper Solar Flex - SSF Upgrades Complete!!

Hello Solar Fans!

I have finally completed the upgrades to my SSF system and am really happy with the final result. I have added a total of 1200 watts of Renogy solar panels for a total of 2400 watts on the roof, doubling my production ability. As you can see in the picture I have used nearly all the available roof space but can still walk around.

I have added two Victron Energy 100/50 controllers to the two I had for the factory panels. One is connected to three 200 watt panels wired in series. The second is connected to two 200 watt panels and two 100 watt panels. I first wired all 4 of these in series but got an overvoltage error from the controller. So I had to wire the two 100 watt panels in parallel and then wire those to the two 200 watt panels in series. This is just like having three 200 watt panels in series, and no more overvoltage error.

I have also added two more BattleBorn GameChanger 270 A-Hr batteries to my system for a total of 1050 A-Hr, effectively doubling my storage capacity to match the new production ability. I decided to mount these all the way in the back under the couch against the back wall as I did not want to add any more weight up front (especially after installing a washer/dryer set). I ran 25 ft of 4/0 welding cable from the new batteries back to the SSF box. For safety, I added a 200 amp fuse at each end of the hot wire in case it should ever chafe through riding in the under belly.

Lastly, I have removed the Jaboni display panel since it is no longer used and installed a 5" Raspberry Pi display for the R-Pi I have installed to monitor the solar system. I have plugged in all four of my Victron controllers and battery monitor into the R-Pi. It uploads the data to Victron's VRM site every five minutes and I like this display much better as well.

I am looking forward to testing this new setup while boondocking again soon. On a sunny day, I expect to be able to run one A/C unit almost all day long without draining the batteries. Let me know if you have any questions.

Best, Mike
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Old 08-15-2022, 02:35 PM   #2
Daryles
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Awesome setup!!

Interesting article on mixing solar panels.
You have probably already compensated for this.

Mixing solar panels, Do's and Don'ts
https://solarpanelsvenue.com/mixing-solar-panels/
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Old 08-15-2022, 03:27 PM   #3
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Very nice! I’m having some trouble with my super solar package. The Jaboni charge controller says the batteries have high voltage and cut off. The batteries then discharged to 0.0 volts but the charge controllers are keeping the error code. Do you have any ideas?
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Old 08-15-2022, 03:41 PM   #4
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Fantastic work, again, Mike!

I've got some questions that I can fire off later, but just wanted to give a quick shoutout. This is really impressive work.

Brad
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Old 08-15-2022, 03:44 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
Very nice! I’m having some trouble with my super solar package. The Jaboni charge controller says the batteries have high voltage and cut off. The batteries then discharged to 0.0 volts but the charge controllers are keeping the error code. Do you have any ideas?
First, welcome to the forum!!!

Montana uses Future Sales for the solar kits and they are the ones that provide the support directly.
Here is the contact details for the guru that can help you out:
Matt Wolkins mattw@futuresalesrv.com

Matt will be able to give you the answers you need.
hth,

Brad
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Old 08-15-2022, 03:50 PM   #6
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Thank you!
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Old 08-15-2022, 05:28 PM   #7
MAWilsonPE
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Thanks Daryles, great article. I read several before embarking on this project. I also talked to Matt at Future Sales. He said that each solar controller does not care what the others are doing so treat each controller configuration independently and you will be OK.

Basically, I believe you should not mix panel manufacturers on one controller, hence I used all Renogy panels for my upgrades. When it came to mixing series and parallel for the four panel string, I called Renogy and confirmed that two in parallel and the rest in series would be OK and this solved my overvoltage issue. I am now a firm believer in series wiring vs parallel to reduce the amps in the feed lines (see my other post on this subject). These are long runs if you include the interconnecting panel wiring so reducing the amps is the right way to go (but you need the right controllers to handle the higher voltage).

Jonathan, I agree with Brad that Matt will be your best resource. I think the Jaboni controllers are undersized for 600 watts of panels. They are rated for only 30 amps output and 600 watts charging at 13.5 volts is well over 40 amps. My very first problem with the SSF package was tripping the 30 amp breaker on one of the Jaboni controller output lines. The Victron Energy 100/50 controllers are rated for up to 100 volts input and can output up to 50 amps. It is sunny here in the Carolinas! Good luck...

Best Regards, Mike
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Old 08-15-2022, 05:58 PM   #8
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Brad, allow me to anticipate a few of your questions with some more details.

To size the interconnecting wires to my new batteries I looked at max charge and discharge rates. I have changed the Magnum Energy charger setting to 100% so it will now charge at 125 amps DC on shore power (BattleBorn states you can charge as fast as 50% the rated A-Hr capacity or about 125 amps per battery!!). 2400 watts of solar charging at 13.5 volts could add as much as another 180 amps for a max possible charge rate of about 300 amps (shore + solar).

The inverter can generate 25 amps of 110VAC power so that is 205 amps at 13.5 VDC. Other DC users could draw more but I don't expect greater than an additional 50 amps. So charging is the maximum amperage expected.

Only half of this load will go to my new batteries. The BattleBorn manual recommends 2/0 wiring for 25 ft (one way) up to 150 amps. I went with 4/0 to minimize the voltage drop. I used 200 amp fuses at each end as the next step up from my expected maximum.

The only other change to the Magnum charger settings was to increase the absorb time to 3 hours (this is the maximum allowable setting). BattleBorn recommends 1 hour per battery. I also increased this setting in the Victron Energy charge controllers.

Let me know if you have other questions.

Best, Mike
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Old 08-15-2022, 06:31 PM   #9
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That's quite the setup although I don't know how you walk around up there. Hopefully those lithium batteries behave otherwise you'll have a heated seat upgrade.
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Old 08-15-2022, 06:50 PM   #10
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Mike, another great job. You did another superb explanation as well. I am sure it will work great. Did you figure how much weight you added?

Jonathan, join our Montana Solar Flex Facebook page. It is for owners of factory installed solar and upgrades. Matt is a regular contributor on our site. Are you going to rally by chance?
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Old 08-16-2022, 05:02 AM   #11
MAWilsonPE
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Hello Ron,

Two BattleBorn BBGC3 Batteries = 81 lbs ea. x 2 = 162 lbs
Five Renogy RSP200D 200 watt panels = 26.5 lbs ea. x 5 = 133 lbs
Two Renogy RNG100D 100 watt panels = 14 lb ea. x 2 = 28 lbs
Two 25 ft 4/0 wire = 0.8 lbs/ft x 25 x 2 = 40 lbs
Two Victron Energy 100/50 Controllers = 3 lbs ea. x 2 = 6 lbs
Mounting brackets, 10AWG solar cables, 6 tubes Dicor = roughly 10 lbs

Grand total = ~380 lbs

The panels are evenly distributed on the roof and the batteries are all the way in the back, so I hope the net result was to reduce the pin weight a little bit. I plan to get back to the scales sometime soon.

Best, Mike
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Old 08-16-2022, 02:26 PM   #12
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Mike,

Beautiful job and fantastic write-up.

any thoughts on dual inverters?

tho, with my meager Supersolar system, more than a few hours of AC on a hot afternoon would be heavenly.
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Old 08-16-2022, 03:18 PM   #13
MAWilsonPE
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Hello Arkware,

The Magnum inverter is capable of 3000 watts which can actually run both A/C units at the same time (though not for long!). I don’t see the need for any more inverter capacity.

Best, Mike
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Old 08-17-2022, 08:40 AM   #14
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My solar flex 400 is prewired for a second inverter specifically for the rear AC. I though about installing a second 2000 watt inverter but I would have to upgrade the battery bank and it still wouldn't run the AC very long.
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Old 08-17-2022, 09:58 AM   #15
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They just might hire you at the factory for your skills......awesome setup.
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Old 08-17-2022, 10:14 AM   #16
MAWilsonPE
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Thank you Robert!

I really enjoy the technical challenge, doing my homework, and bringing it all together. This should be the last major upgrade in my effort to build the camper of my dreams... well there is the IS and pinbox upgrade at MorRyde in March... but then I am done... for now

The wife says I need to stop spending or I might be camping by myself!

Best, Mike
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Old 08-18-2022, 12:08 PM   #17
MAWilsonPE
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So someone in the Montana Solar Facebook group posted a reply to my new setup concerned that I will quickly end up with very unbalanced batteries with such a long run to the two new ones compared to the very short run for the factory batteries reducing my actual A-Hr capacity. I appreciate his comments and concerns and he's got me thinking.

I selected 4/0 welding cable to connect the two new batteries because I calculated the voltage drop to be less than 0.20 volts at 100 amps, 0.10 volts at 50 amps, and 0.04 volts at 20 amps. I felt these were pretty low. Running one A/C unit is about a 100 amp draw. With my new panels, the max charge rate is 180 amps. Only half these amps should come from either pair of batteries if properly balanced.

I spoke with a tech at BattleBorn and he did not like this long 25' run at all and could not recommend it. It is likely the front set will draw down first before pulling from the back set. Looking at the BB voltage vs capacity chart a 0.20 volt difference between the two battery sets could be as much as 50% capacity. Hmmm...

Conversely, when the batteries are charging, the front set will charge first and then the back set. But, when the chargers switch to absorb mode the amps are so low there should be no preference to one set or the other in my opinion. I could not get the tech to agree with me on that. He stated he is not an electrical engineer and BattleBorn does not have an EE on staff, what?!? He could only tell me what they recommend, which is to balance the wire lengths so the voltage drop to each pair is the same.

I am not convinced... It would be very difficult to calculate the variation in amps to each set as the wire resistance (voltage drop) is a function of amps, sounds like some differential calculus would be needed (it's been a looong time)

So my plan now is to install a Victron SmartShunt on each pair located close to the batteries themselves. Then I can measure the amperages independently for each pair and see any differences. Then I can make an informed decision as whether I need to take further steps to balance the voltage drops.

If necessary, I could add 8 feet of #2 wire (which is rated for 200 amps) to the hot and ground of the front battery set. This would have the same voltage drop as the 25 ft of 4/0 wire pair. He didn't like that idea either and wants me to either run 25 more feet of 4/0 or relocate the inverter to the middle of the camper, not gonna happen...

I welcome any thoughts or suggestions you folks might have.

Thanks, Mike
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Old 08-18-2022, 02:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAWilsonPE View Post
So someone in the Montana Solar Facebook group posted a reply to my new setup concerned that I will quickly end up with very unbalanced batteries with such a long run to the two new ones compared to the very short run for the factory batteries reducing my actual A-Hr capacity. I appreciate his comments and concerns and he's got me thinking.

I selected 4/0 welding cable to connect the two new batteries because I calculated the voltage drop to be less than 0.20 volts at 100 amps, 0.10 volts at 50 amps, and 0.04 volts at 20 amps. I felt these were pretty low. Running one A/C unit is about a 100 amp draw. With my new panels, the max charge rate is 180 amps. Only half these amps should come from either pair of batteries if properly balanced.

I spoke with a tech at BattleBorn and he did not like this long 25' run at all and could not recommend it. It is likely the front set will draw down first before pulling from the back set. Looking at the BB voltage vs capacity chart a 0.20 volt difference between the two battery sets could be as much as 50% capacity. Hmmm...

Conversely, when the batteries are charging, the front set will charge first and then the back set. But, when the chargers switch to absorb mode the amps are so low there should be no preference to one set or the other in my opinion. I could not get the tech to agree with me on that. He stated he is not an electrical engineer and BattleBorn does not have an EE on staff, what?!? He could only tell me what they recommend, which is to balance the wire lengths so the voltage drop to each pair is the same.

I am not convinced... It would be very difficult to calculate the variation in amps to each set as the wire resistance (voltage drop) is a function of amps, sounds like some differential calculus would be needed (it's been a looong time)

So my plan now is to install a Victron SmartShunt on each pair located close to the batteries themselves. Then I can measure the amperages independently for each pair and see any differences. Then I can make an informed decision as whether I need to take further steps to balance the voltage drops.

If necessary, I could add 8 feet of #2 wire (which is rated for 200 amps) to the hot and ground of the front battery set. This would have the same voltage drop as the 25 ft of 4/0 wire pair. He didn't like that idea either and wants me to either run 25 more feet of 4/0 or relocate the inverter to the middle of the camper, not gonna happen...

I welcome any thoughts or suggestions you folks might have.

Thanks, Mike
Mike,

I'm low voltage certified for commercial buildings in our area. So, while the concepts are familiar, the work our company does is to install based on plans engineered for the contractors. (and I've long since stopped working in the day to day, so have folks way smarter than me handling this anyway)

I say that to say this - I'm sure no expert, but I do know enough to agree you will have some imbalances. I think installing another shunt and measuring each set of batteries will give you some visibility into what is going on; that may well help to know how much of an imbalance you may have, and whether your idea of adding resistance to the first set of batteries will restore balance.

One other item that you didn't mention, but perhaps should be added to the mix - for those frequent "low usage" days, you will likely end up with far more cycles on the front set of batteries compared to the back. Whether that means just that they will reach their lifetime cycle limit sooner, or whether it means more than that, I don't know. But I do suspect it will make a material difference, as is.
As you know, ideally large battery banks are connected all together in one location, connected using bus bars, and with external connections on opposite ends; all this to achieve as close a balance between all cells/batteries as possible. So I do think your install introduces some variables that are significantly different and worth investigating.

My 2 cents, and all the best with sorting it out!
Brad
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Old 08-18-2022, 03:48 PM   #19
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This has been a great discussion. Living in the mountains, we don’t have AC at the house and usually camp in high altitude. The 1200 watts of solar/540 ah of battery, keep us well supplied. Until we boondock somewhere like Moab when it’s 104. I think we’ll stick to the mountains in summer. Now before I retired, the Midwest was a different story. More like what Mike sees. This will continue to evolve. In the mean time, I will be interested to see how this turns out. And Brad, hope that outdoor kitchen is getting a workout.
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Old 08-18-2022, 05:21 PM   #20
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Wow did you do it?
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