Banks Brake - Montana Owners Club

Broome101 · 01-30-2005, 03:53 AM

For all those who have the Banks Power Brake system is it worth the $900.00 price tag or not. I have heard that it''s not worth it if your not in mountains all the time. Expensive add on if it really doesn't help that much. Looking to hear from those who have it or experience with them or knows somebody with it. My tow vehicle is 2001 F205 7.3 PSD, CC, 4x4, SRW, I have added hyprtech programmer, banks TransCommand, 4" exhaust and BD X-monitor all of which have help keeps things cooled down on tranny and I can keep watch. i also have added extra cooler and external filter kit to make changing fluid easier.

Montana_3008 · 02-14-2005, 03:41 AM

Broome101,
We've had a Banks Brake on our 3500 Dodge dualie for two years almost. I use it all the time, hitched or not! When hitched we are pulling a 35 ft. Montana and am glad to be able to "keep our cool" brake wise on long down hill runs. We have a 6 speed manual tranny
and I mounted the on/off switch on the gearshift just below the knob. I found this to be convenient, more so than the dashboard location where Camping World had installed the switch originally. I purchased a plastic project box at Radio Shack ( 2" by 3" & 3/4" deep ) and with a few modifications was able to mount the switch and box to the gear shift lever with cable ties. As far as the exaust brake is concerned I would not want to travel without it. I've never experienced a problem with the operation of the Banks Brake unit so far and have a great amount of confidence in the operation of same.
Hope this helps!
Mike

lightningjack11 · 02-14-2005, 04:26 AM

In Florida and most of the south I never use mine but when I go North I use it in the hills. The only enconter I get with hills is usually two 8percent grades that I usually go over. I am glad I have one in those cases. By using my exhaust brake and TC lockup circuit so when I descend down those grades I go 50mph all the way down without using my truck brake or trailer brake.

I do not have a Banks brake. I converted my EBPV valve into an exhaust brake. I only use it when I have to.

I have heard stories in years past that one couple had there bargman connector work loose at the top of the steep grade so the only brakes they had was the truck. I don't remember the outcome but it was not good.

---------------------------------

For a 97 Ford PSD here is what happens when you start down a grade. The first reaction is to tap the brakes. The Torque Converter unlocks on the first tap and will not lock up again until your speed goes past a certain threshold. So this means you lose all engine friction braking because the transmission is now on fluid drive. I lock up my TC manually and keep it locked during the grade.

I have been told that later models don't unlock but I wouldn't be surprised if my sources are wrong. It is easy enough to test on your vehicle. If you start going down a grade touch the brake momentarily. You will feel the difference if the TC unlocks. (RPM may change)

My advice is as follows:

If your driving in mountains you will need it for your truck. You will not need it if you trade your truck for a new 6L.

My DIY works ok but not as good as a banks. Mine cost about 35 dollars.

Glenn and Lorraine · 02-14-2005, 04:37 AM

Don't know about the Fords or Dodges but the Banks Factory rep at the Harrisburg RV show told me that the Chevy with the Duramax didn't need it. As I hadn't had my TV a month and had heard about the Banks system I went looking for the Banks booth at the show. I was totally prepared to have the system installed. You can't imagine how surprised I was by his comment. He explained that having the tow/haul mode and the Banks system is pure redundancy.
Had anyone but the Banks Factory rep said this to me I would have had my doubts but getting the word straight from the horses mouth was all I needed.
After having towed my Monty through the mountains of Tennessee, Virginia, Kentucky, Penna and New York I can only concur with that rep. I don't need it.

sreigle · 02-15-2005, 04:38 PM

Glenn, same with the Ford PowerStroke diesel with the TorqueShift automatic. We're towing just short of 14,000 lbs and the mountains of Colorado are no problem. The TorqueShift does all the work in holding speed going down the mountains. I imagine when you get out West later this year you'll find yours does just fine, too. With the Ford you don't even have to step on the brake to activate grade braking. The computer does that automatically when in tow/haul mode, although you can override it and cause it to downshift more quickly by stepping on the brake. Vicki will tell you there have been times I have lightly touched the brake pedal just so the folks behind us will know our brake lights do work. Don't laugh, I've been behind people I suspsected had faulty brake lights and it's not comfortable being behind them. When a trailer and truck are holding speed down a grade and I see no brake lights I have to be uncomfortable. So tapping the brakes lets them know the lights do work!

padredw · 02-16-2005, 02:10 AM

I can't say it any better than my friends Glenn and Steve Reigle, but I just want to say that my experience is entirely consistent with their comments. On our trips to Colorado I have never felt the slightest need for any augmentation of the excellent tow/haul module on our Duramax/Allison. I use that option only in the mountains, but find it extremely helpful there especially on the downhill leg.

Bill Hill · 02-16-2005, 03:41 AM

We have the Duramax/Allison combo and a BD exhaust brake. I believe that the exhaust brake gives us an extra margin of safety that is not there with the stock set up. The Allison transmission has a tow/haul mode that is excellent, but it doesn't overcome the inherent lack of engine braking from a diesel. Gasoline engines have the advantage in this as there is some kind of "butterfly" used whether your carburated or have fuel injection to control the air flow. Diesels are always wide open and the engine speed is controlled by the amount of fuel introduced. The exhaust brake adds a butterfly to the system to slow the air coming through and providing engine braking. The conventional "wisdom" is that you need this less in the eastern part of the country where the mountains are less steep and more in the West where the mountains are steeper. I had ours installed when we went from a 7K GVWR TT to our 12.5K GVWR Montana, feeling that the extra weight needed better braking ability. The Allison transmission doesn't require any modifications because the torque converter locks up in the tow/haul mode. The older Dodge, Ford, and other GM trannys don't and have to have the modification to do so. Hope this helps, and if I'm wrong on any of these points, please let me know, I'd hate to be this stupid forever.

sreigle · 02-16-2005, 05:29 AM

Bill, as a Ford guy I may be out of place in this thread but my understanding is the Duramax has a similar setup with the turbo as the Ford, although I'm not positive of that. The Ford turbo has variable vane geometry, meaning the vanes change angle depending on commands from the computer. In tow/haul mode during grade braking the Ford turbo vanes close or nearly close, providing backpressure similar to that experienced in a gas engine. I don't think all exhaust goes through the turbo so it's probably not fully equivalent to a gas engine's backpressure but it does feel very similar to our towing experiences with our gas V10, although with the transmission in that truck I had to manually downshift the transmission while it's automatic with the psd/TS. My understanding is the duramax has a similar setup on the turbo. If I'm wrong, please feel free to say so. Actually, the grade braking with the psd/ts is far better than we had with the V10 gas.

Montana_657 · 02-16-2005, 06:56 AM

Steve, I do believe your talking about the exhaust gate. That is used to control the amount of boost from the turbo. If it closed on deceleration you would risk overboosting the engine.

Bill Hill has the right explanation. It's just that you guys with automatics have had almost no engine brakeing before the newer autos with the tow / haul mode. Your now at the same state as the guys with the 6 speed befor the brake was installed.

For the record... Banks refused to reccommend a place for customer service on the road because although I had internet (wifi)I couldn't provide them a phone number. My brake is now a US gear. Superior service... they go out of their way to help out a customer stranded on the road.

Besides with a name like Hill he must be the expert.

sreigle · 02-16-2005, 03:08 PM

Gruffy, I don't know how it worked other than what I stated. I don't hear exhaust going out the gate during grade braking and all I can tell you is what I read in a description in one of the magazines. It was quoting a Ford rep at the time. I don't have the magazine any more and can't find a reference to it online so maybe he was blowing smoke (no pun intended!) but that's my understanding of how it works. The vanes are variable both during acceleration and deceleration, for whatever that is worth. Maybe Trukdoc or another diesel mech can shed some light on this. I've been wrong before...

NJ Hillbilly · 02-20-2005, 07:50 AM

Steve, I believe that GM started using the variable vane turbo in '04. You are correct that the PS closes the vanes of the turbo to help slow things but any of these measures are still not the same as an exhaust brake.

John

Montana_657 · 02-20-2005, 10:39 AM

If you are on a hill and you engage an exhaust brake you feel an immediate decelleration and the exhaust note changes (gets louder).

Locking up the torque converter and locking out the turbo create drag.. but not nearly as much.

sreigle · 02-20-2005, 11:21 AM

Well, all I can say is maybe the exhaust brake does more braking but the stock setup is far beyond anything I've felt a need for, even on very long and steep downgrades. And, Gruffy, it does create an immediate deceleration. Read the magazines, they say the same thing. This is not locking out the torque converter and turbo, it's computer controlled downshifting plus closing of the turbo vanes to generate engine backpressure. Believe me, it works. Between the two trucks with this system we've put on over 62k miles, around 20k of that towing 14,000 lbs of Montana. Believe me, it works.

Montana_657 · 02-20-2005, 12:59 PM

Steve, Steve, the turbo is on the intake side (Compressor) and cannot create back pressure. The turbine side is a set of vanes turning in the exhaust... feed everything through them and the pressure will spin up the compressor blow the manifold off (intake)...

I have had a test drive and was not impressed. It's no better then the stock 6spd without the brake. I see what you guys with the autos have been putting up with.

You have just never had a torque converter that will lock up and a transmission that will downshift before. It's a great improvement but not anything equal to a manual transmission with a good exhaust brake.

Why do you think Banks (as poor as their service is ) is still selling them??

Glenn and Lorraine · 02-20-2005, 01:21 PM

I am going to repeat of my previous post...

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Glenn and Lorraine

Don't know about the Fords or Dodges but the Banks Factory rep at the Harrisburg RV show told me that the Chevy with the Duramax didn't need it. As I hadn't had my TV a month and had heard about the Banks system I went looking for the Banks booth at the show. I was totally prepared to have the system installed. You can't imagine how surprised I was by his comment. He explained that having the tow/haul mode and the Banks system is pure redundancy.
Had anyone but the Banks Factory rep said this to me I would have had my doubts but getting the word straight from the horses mouth was all I needed.
After having towed my Monty through the mountains of Tennessee, Virginia, Kentucky, Penna and New York I can only concur with that rep. I don't need it.

Now seeing as I got this straight from the Banks factory representative I tend to believe him. Not to bad mouth anyone on here but just who would you believe?? If you are still in disagreement than explain to me why this Banks factory rep would refuse to take my money unless he knew that I would be just ****** it away. In this situation I consider Banks the expert and all others in disagreement as something considerably less.

sreigle · 02-20-2005, 01:46 PM

Glenn, they sell them because some people are more comfortable having them. Same with the power side. I see no need to augment the power of my PSD but they still sell the upgrades should I change my mind.

Gruffy, here you go. This is the first one I ran across doing a google search. This link is to a Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge diesel towing test. I'll quote the relevant parts below. The article is a test of 2003 models.

The url is http://www.mrtruck.net/powerstroke.htm

And the two relevant paragraphs --

Ford increased cooling with a larger fan, higher radiator capacity and expanded size of the intercooler that feeds the larger variable airflow turbocharger. This new Electronic Variable Response Turbocharger offers a tremendous advantage here in Colorado pulling trailers in the mountains where the air is thin. The new EVRT turbo can give the engine increased air volume or shut down the air and increase backpressure when you need to slow down and doesn’t need a waste gate or the cold start butterfly in the exhaust.

The all-new 6.0L Ford Power Stroke works well with the new TorqShift for both sides of the hill. Giving you more power to climb uphill, shifting when needed to maintain speed and rpm while the all-new Electronic Variable Response Turbocharger, gives you the extra air your diesel needs for power and high altitude thin air. This same incredible variable turbocharger will also create some backpressure going down the hill to assist the Torque-Shift transmission and the 4-wheel disc brakes to safely slow you down according to Charles Freese, chief engineer of diesel engines for Ford. With the variable vanes in the new turbo, you can slow down the volume of air the turbo forces into the intake manifold, almost like what a throttle plate does in a gas engine to give you engine braking.

---end of quote---

Hopefully you can now understand that closing the vanes to some degree against the exhaust flow does in fact create backpressure, just as does any restriction in the exhaust system. Gruffy, you can believe what you want but I've been there. An exhaust brake might add yet additional braking and that's not bad. But having towed this Montana with this engine/trans combination for far more than a test ride, I still see no reason to even consider an exhaust brake. Anyone more comfortable adding an exhaust brake, do so. For me, I see no need. So I guess we agree to disagree, huh? And believe me, Gruffy, you ride with me down a mountain grade with this 21k+ load and you'll be impressed. A solo test ride isn't even close to the same thing.

Manual trans with exhaust brake might be even better. I haven't towed with that combination so will not attempt to argue the point. But it's moot to me. I did my years with a manual. I'll take the automatic. One of those personal preference things and no offense meant to those who prefer the manual.

c5racer · 02-20-2005, 03:37 PM

My friend followed me from SD to WA State with his 2004 Ford 350 Dually PSD towing his 35' Hitchhiker and he found it hard to believe that I didn't ever use my brakes going down the mountains. He said he had to tap his brakes frequently. All I would do is turn my exhaust brake off and on to maintain the speed I wanted to run or turn on the cruise control. I use my exhaust brake all the time, even when running solo. When running with the cruise on, the exhaust brake will kick in when the speed gets about 3 MPH over the speed setting. Won't mention he used more fuel than I did.

Montana_1424 · 02-26-2005, 05:38 AM

Does anyone know if the Stick setup of the Dodge with the Tow/Haul on has the same effect as the chevy or Ford, as far as slowing and maintaining speed on downgrades? Just curious, as I am lookinginto getting an exhaust brake. I have toe 04 Dodge Cummings 600 HO with the automatic trany.
Thanks

Bill Hill · 03-01-2005, 09:46 AM

I've just gotten back on this thread. I don't know much about the Banks brake, I got the BD exhaust brake. I had it installed by STC Performance in Norwalk CA and they felt it was worthwhile on the D/A combo. I don't think it was a matter of money since they also said that it wasn't worth it to do the chip modifications to get more torque/hp. Now I know I've opened up a new can of worms!

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