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Old 02-20-2008, 03:53 PM   #21
noneck
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Oh, now my personal confession...I'm AAS SUNY Electrical Technician (78) and BS Marist Management Technology (07) degree's as my disclaimer...fixing and redesigning Semiconductor Equipment in IBM Manufacturing Production Lines.
IMHO...I would not run more than one just because if boon docking Kipor 3kw is about all the violation of roughing it I can muster up...but still idolize my techoness. Tent dweller walking by commenting that he didn't even know I had one (confirming my techoness) and recognizing its currently running! Yep, DW inside watching TV, and sewing while working between two machines; surger and Viking embroiderer.
Spent 7 days...going home with 3/4 full 6 gallon tank of gas! Happy Campers, DH & DW...hoping DK's didn't trash the house...sorry rambling its late here in NE.
 
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:08 AM   #22
bncinwv
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But after all of that, there is still the everpresent question. Even if you are not boondocking and you have total electrical power failure and DW is in the middle of washing and drying clothes in the Splendide stackable, if the Kipor will not run both?????, can a DH step up to the rescue and say, hold on dear I have a solution (I knew we bought both of of the generators for a legitimate reason!!), let me get you enough power for the washer and dryer to be run at the same time. OR, simply state you are out of luck dear, we only have enough power for one of them plus the television because the game is on (Thump, Thump...OUCH OUCH OUCH!!). Besides, I still have to justify the Honda or Kipor 2000. This is less than two months after purchasing the Kipor 3500. It is going to get interesting....what was that definiton of BOAT??? Something about another thousand. The Mocers with the prophetic insight are proving to be hazardous to my health and general well-being. But on a good note, WV changed sales tax from 6% to 5% (which resulted in an extra $500 that was unanticpated, so I got over half the battle won). Sorry for the extended diatribe, but this thread is merely a figment of stickhouse fever anyway........C'mon Spring.
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Old 02-21-2008, 02:26 AM   #23
SlickWillie
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BTW, Bingo, don't forget about that "stimulus check" later in the spring.

Back to the OP. My only question remaining is the neutral line on this set up. We know the neutral wire will be carrying the total amps of the two hot wires. When the neutral splits, the load (neutral side) will be distributed equally between the two generators. Any problem with that? My thinking was to ground the two generator chassis together to give them identical ground potential. Are my concerns unwarranted? Perhaps the ground wire in the adapter will take care of this.
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Old 02-21-2008, 02:31 AM   #24
bncinwv
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Will,
"Stimulus Check" is not a viable option, DW already claimed all rights to the check!! Go figure??
Bingo
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Old 02-21-2008, 08:03 AM   #25
Broome101
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Bingo, you may can do it, what I would do though prior to plugging anything into the cheater box is check and see if you have 240 volts on two legs, if not then don't use it. Not sure the 5000 watts is going to be able to pull alot but might help you out in jam so to speak. Check out this link on RV Electrical. http://www.myrv.us/electric/index.htm gives you plenty of good information on how the 50 map service works on RV's.
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Old 02-21-2008, 08:29 AM   #26
bncinwv
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Thanks Broome,
Guess my stick-bound delusional mental wanderings may not be so delusional after all. Hmmm, wonder what we can dream up for the next thread????
Bingo
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:46 PM   #27
SlickWillie
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Broome101

Bingo, you may can do it, what I would do though prior to plugging anything into the cheater box is check and see if you have 240 volts on two legs, if not then don't use it. Not sure the 5000 watts is going to be able to pull alot but might help you out in jam so to speak. Check out this link on RV Electrical. http://www.myrv.us/electric/index.htm gives you plenty of good information on how the 50 map service works on RV's.
Seems to me the only way you will measure 240 volts across those two legs is if the generators are exactly 180* out of phase. That would be the same as a center tap transformer at the stick house. Odds are you will never get that on two generators randomly connected to two hot lines. Besides, you're not dependent on 240 volts for the RV. Confused yet Bingo?
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Old 02-21-2008, 02:21 PM   #28
bncinwv
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Partially, I still don't understand why I would have to have 240 between the two legs. All that I think I would need is 120 on each one, whether they are in phase or out. Please don't make me look up my Electrical Fundamentals book from college ages ago!!!
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:37 PM   #29
Broome101
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Seems to me the only way you will measure 240 volts across those two legs is if the generators are exactly 180* out of phase. That would be the same as a center tap transformer at the stick house. Odds are you will never get that on two generators randomly connected to two hot lines. Besides, you're not dependent on 240 volts for the RV. Confused yet Bingo?
Slickwille, Bingo is wanting to use a cheater box that pulls 120VAC leg off two different power sources, the cheater box internally switches the neutral wires to give him 240 VAC 50amp service, pulling 30 amps from bigger source (3500 Kipor) and 20 map from lower source (Honda 2000). He is trying to use AC, TV, washer, dryer all at smae time on gen power, so he needs 50 amps, thus he has to have 240 VAC.
Bingo,your rig has 240 volts coming into your breaker panel inside the rig. Your breaker panel splits it to two different 50 amp buss bars, in reality you have 100 amp service inside your rig. Running left to right every other breaker is on separate 50 amp buss at 120 VAC, the panel slits the 240 VAC into two separate 50 amp 120 VAC. You can also pull this out go left to right right down each on paper to see how many big loads (micro,AC's frt and main,washer/dryer)make sure biggest are not on same side or all of them as I found when I pulled my panel. the best you can balance this out better off you will be and not have to worry about tripping breakers. Pull the link I gave you above middle right of page in blue letter 50AMP RV Service click that link helps explain 240 VAC 50amp service.
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:06 AM   #30
SlickWillie
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The Monty does not need 240 volts, unless it has been modified with a residential 240 volt appliance. You could supply both hot wires with 120 volts from the same circuit if you desire (with adequate breaker size in the supplying panel). All you need is 120 volts measured to neutral on each leg. My thinking is that the only reason the Monty has a 50 amp cord is so the neutral wire is adequate to handle the combined amps from both hot legs. Otherwise, a 30 amp twist lock 240 volt plug and cord would be probably be adequate. (lots easier to handle)

I simply don't really understand "switching neutral" wires. You break the circuit, hot or neutral, you lose the circuit. I haven't seen a schematic on the "cheater box" but I would think the neutral is spliced between the supply, and the ground wire is done the same. It merely grabs 120 volts from two different receptacles.
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:34 AM   #31
bncinwv
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I think I understand all of that until the part where it enters the rig. If I have 20 amp 120 on one leg of the 50 amp feed and 30 amp 120 on the other leg of the 50 amp feed, instead of 50 amp and 50 amp, what I am having trouble with is do the two legs ever get combined on a buss or do they maintain their separate status (kind of like parallel water pipes is what I am envisioning). If they never get combined anywhere, then with the cheater box you never truly have 50 amp service but are "cheating" the rig into thinking it does but in reality instead of just 30 amp service, you now have 20 amp service going to one set of breakers as you described and 30 amp service going to the other. If I am completely off-base with this, let me know, I am just trying to learn more.
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:07 AM   #32
SlickWillie
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by bncinwv

I think I understand all of that until the part where it enters the rig. If I have 20 amp 120 on one leg of the 50 amp feed and 30 amp 120 on the other leg of the 50 amp feed, instead of 50 amp and 50 amp, what I am having trouble with is do the two legs ever get combined on a buss or do they maintain their separate status (kind of like parallel water pipes is what I am envisioning). If they never get combined anywhere, then with the cheater box you never truly have 50 amp service but are "cheating" the rig into thinking it does but in reality instead of just 30 amp service, you now have 20 amp service going to one set of breakers as you described and 30 amp service going to the other. If I am completely off-base with this, let me know, I am just trying to learn more.
Bingo
Bingo, I checked the panel on our Mountaineer, and it is not a 240 volt distribution panel (you can't use a two pole breaker on it to obtain 240 volts). But...we have the WF panel, not the Iota. I would think the Iota might be the same; not sure though. I think you understand the system very well.
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:07 AM   #33
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You got it!!!!!!!!!, prior to 2004 that is how all 50 amp rigs were set up, a separate 20 amps for extra AC or Wash/Dryer. Since then 50 map service in your rig has been true 50 map service on both sides.
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:17 AM   #34
bncinwv
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Thanks guys,
As I said I am learning more about my rig through this great resource (MOC forum). I don't know if we will ever use this, but it is good knowing that if I had to, I could!!! This is what is truly great about MOCers!!!!
Bingo
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:22 AM   #35
SlickWillie
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"Slickwille, Bingo is wanting to use a cheater box that pulls 120VAC leg off two different power sources, the cheater box internally switches the neutral wires to give him 240 VAC 50amp service, pulling 30 amps from bigger source (3500 Kipor) and 20 map from lower source (Honda 2000). He is trying to use AC, TV, washer, dryer all at smae time on gen power, so he needs 50 amps, thus he has to have 240 VAC."

Why do we need 240 volts when nothing in the RV uses 240 volts AC?

(Edit) I'll answer my own question. I did a little research. Here's what I found. The RV needs the 240 for the following reason. The two legs need to be out of phase for the load on the neutral to cancel out, thus not over loading the neutral wire. #6 wire IIRC correctly, rated at something like 55 amps. My feeling is that Broome101 is correct in saying the generators need to read 240 volts across the hot legs. Not sure about how you're going to get that done.

That being said, I don't think those two generators will provide enough current to overload the neutral wire. Just my opinion.
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:03 PM   #36
Broome101
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SlickWillie, here is how you get 240 VAC off the 2 gen sets. The cheater box converts it for you.

http://www.tweetys.com/index.asp?Pag...OD&ProdID=6765
The Cheater box plugs into a 20A and 30A outlet on separate circuits to provide a 240V/50A service outlet, enabling coaches with 50A service to have full use of RV appliances. Includes a 30A to 15A adapter.
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Old 02-22-2008, 11:04 PM   #37
SlickWillie
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quote:Originally posted by Broome101

SlickWillie, here is how you get 240 VAC off the 2 gen sets. The cheater box converts it for you.

http://www.tweetys.com/index.asp?Pag...OD&ProdID=6765
The Cheater box plugs into a 20A and 30A outlet on separate circuits to provide a 240V/50A service outlet, enabling coaches with 50A service to have full use of RV appliances. Includes a 30A to 15A adapter.
Broome, IIRC from the old days (and now I'm not too sure I do), the generators would have to be 180* out of phase (sine wave) to measure 240 volts. What I'm not seeing is how you could start up two generators and have them come on line that way, w/o some electronic means of phasing them. Plugging into a power source (pedestal), I could see the Cheater working. I am curious why a park owner wouldn't want you to use it. Only reason I can think of is if the pedestal is on one circuit. Opinion?
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