Towing capacity and Payload Question

[Chief Brown]

We have a 2020 Ram 2500 Big Horn Crew Cab with the Cummins diesel. We did have a 2014 Crusader Fifth wheel with a dry weight of 10,070. Last year we decided to upgrade to a 2021 MHC 331RL. I looked at the dry weight of the Montana and it was around 11,500. I then researched the towing capacity of my Ram and it is around 17,800. So I figured I am good to go. I was recently talking with a friend and he said you need to check the payload of your truck. I looked on the placard and the payload is 2115#.
Here's my question, why would Ram build a truck that will tow 17,800# but put the payload capacity so low? This payload would only allow me to tow a 10,000# fifth wheel after I added hitch, passengers, etc. and stay below payload capacity.
Thoughts?

[mhs4771]

Very simple, your payload capacity is exactly 12% of the towing capacity and typical tongue weight of a Travel Trailer is 10% to 12%, so you're Golden with a Travel Trailer, not so for a Fifth Wheel.

[Joint Venture II]

Originally Posted by mhs4771

Very simple, your payload capacity is exactly 12% of the towing capacity and typical tongue weight of a Travel Trailer is 10% to 12%, so you're Golden with a Travel Trailer, not so for a Fifth Wheel.

Very well said too. I doubt there are any 3/4 ton pickups powered with a diesel engine that can haul a Montana FW IF pin weight exceeds 2600#'s legally.

[BB_TX]

Marketing numbers. But most people do not look fully into those numbers and only see the one that appears to meet their needs. You could tow a large heavy bumper pull construction trailer and stay within that payload. And no doubt many work trucks do just that. But start putting some of that weight in the bed with a 5th wheel or gooseneck and it all goes out the door.

To make matters worse, the payload rating of say an F350 SRW can vary from around 3,000 lbs to well over 4,000 lbs depending on the configuration of the truck. Similar variations in the lower ratings of F250s.

[jsb5717]

Sadly, your 3/4 ton truck doesn’t have the payload capacity for that new trailer. That’s a great floor plan, by the way. But the GVWR of that trailer is over 14k lbs so your loaded pin weight will be over 3000 lbs. And that doesn’t account for the added weight of people, hitch, and other gear. Pulling the trailer won’t be a problem. Carrying the added weight will overload you.

[Chief Brown]

Originally Posted by jsb5717

Sadly, your 3/4 ton truck doesn’t have the payload capacity for that new trailer. That’s a great floor plan, by the way. But the GVWR of that trailer is over 14k lbs so your loaded pin weight will be over 3000 lbs. And that doesn’t account for the added weight of people, hitch, and other gear. Pulling the trailer won’t be a problem. Carrying the added weight will overload you.

I thought I had done my homework, but unfortunately, I had only done part of it. It just never occurred to me to check payload capacity. As I stated earlier, I assumed if it was rated to tow 17,860# it would have the payload capacity to match that.

[Slow Hand]

Originally Posted by Chief Brown

I thought I had done my homework, but unfortunately, I had only done part of it. It just never occurred to me to check payload capacity. As I stated earlier, I assumed if it was rated to tow 17,860# it would have the payload capacity to match that.

You did your homework and your truck is just fine. You're true payload id dictated by your axle rating and load capacity of your tires. Don't pay any attention to the yellow sticker except for tire pressure. I have said it a thousand times but these old guys thin k you ain't driving a dully than you don't have enough truck. It's nonsense. My F250 is capable of towing a 5er weighing 15.900 pounds. But if I go by the sticker than I can only tow the 900 part. It's just stupid to think your truck is limited by some sticker that has a 10,000 payload limit. You can get the same sticker on a one ton just the same. Your truck is just fine. Don't let these I played a layer on tv tell you different.

[Cat320]

Originally Posted by Slow Hand

....You're true payload id dictated by your axle rating and load capacity of your tires. Don't pay any attention to the yellow sticker except for tire pressure....

Sure it is, tell that to the police and insurance company.

[DadsHemi]

Originally Posted by Slow Hand

You did your homework and your truck is just fine. You're true payload id dictated by your axle rating and load capacity of your tires. Don't pay any attention to the yellow sticker except for tire pressure. I have said it a thousand times but these old guys thin k you ain't driving a dully than you don't have enough truck. It's nonsense. My F250 is capable of towing a 5er weighing 15.900 pounds. But if I go by the sticker than I can only tow the 900 part. It's just stupid to think your truck is limited by some sticker that has a 10,000 payload limit. You can get the same sticker on a one ton just the same. Your truck is just fine. Don't let these I played a layer on tv tell you different.

I don’t see anyone promoting dually, with the 2500 it’s the pin weight not so much the tow capacity. My 3160RL will squash a 2500 with my pin weight of 4280lbs so if your aware of your pin weight towing is not an issue.

[Vaughlw]

There is no doubt that a 250, 2500 will pull the weight. The problem is not with towing capacity but the TOTAL weight being placed on the truck itself. Max payload, not max towing. Of course most law enforcement agencies arent gonna pull you over and chek you. As mentioned before, if you are involved in an accident even if it's not your fault. The other person could sue you in a civil court for running your rig overloaded. Doesn't matter if you add air bags, helper springs, etc...any decent lawyer will win in court if you are running overloaded. Another issue is correct drivers license. In SC and many other states, if your combined GVWR exceeds 26,000 lbs then you must have a class F license. If not properly licensed then technically you are towing illegally anyway. Not bashing 3/4 ton trucks they are awesome vehicles. Just pay attention to the weight being placed on the truck, which includes pin weight, cargo, and all occupants.

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by Chief Brown

We have a 2020 Ram 2500 Big Horn Crew Cab with the Cummins diesel. We did have a 2014 Crusader Fifth wheel with a dry weight of 10,070. Last year we decided to upgrade to a 2021 MHC 331RL. I looked at the dry weight of the Montana and it was around 11,500. I then researched the towing capacity of my Ram and it is around 17,800. So I figured I am good to go. I was recently talking with a friend and he said you need to check the payload of your truck. I looked on the placard and the payload is 2115#.
Here's my question, why would Ram build a truck that will tow 17,800# but put the payload capacity so low? This payload would only allow me to tow a 10,000# fifth wheel after I added hitch, passengers, etc. and stay below payload capacity.
Thoughts?

It's not just RAM or something they made up. The issue is with the truck classifications and the max weight limits of each... see here for a list - https://www.thebalancesmb.com/commer...cation-2221025
In this case, a "2500" is a "Class 2" pickup which has a maximum GVWR of 10,000lbs (in some areas actually 9,900lbs). Since you have the Cummins diesel, your truck weighs several hundred pounds more than one with a gas engine.

So, do the math; your truck, empty as from factory, weighs 7,885lbs, leaving you with the 2,115lbs payload to meet the upper weight limit of a Class 2 truck. (you can verify the max GVWR on your door sticker)

It's an interesting dilemma; with the Cummins you have a much stronger engine with a much stronger drivetrain, so you can tow much more weight than the gas models. But, because your truck weighs more you have reduced payload.

But, again, it is not a problem created by RAM; it is imposed on all truck manufacturers.

Brad

[77cruiser]

I sure avoided a lot of these issues on my old truck, no yellow sticker.

[mlh]

If I had a nice 2020 Ram I would try pulling your camper to see how it pulled. You certainly have enough power and the only difference between your truck and a 3500 SRW is the rear springs. If you need to put the extra spring on it.
Lynwood

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by mlh

If I had a nice 2020 Ram I would try pulling your camper to see how it pulled. You certainly have enough power and the only difference between your truck and a 3500 SRW is the rear springs. If you need to put the extra spring on it.
Lynwood

On the RAM 2500 they use coil springs but leaf springs on the 3500.
One other note on the RAM 2500, the coil springs are mounted inboard from where the leaf springs are mounted on the 3500s. This makes for a fantastic ride, but does create some challenges when towing, such as sway.

Our last rig was a RAM 2500 with the factory air suspension, towing a 11,000lb Jayco and it did good overall. However, when the conditions were "wrong", there could be some sway. It was usually good with winds, but rutted up 2 lane highways could be a handful. I never felt that the truck had issues pulling or stopping, but be aware of the potential for sway. Once we knew we were upgrading to a Montana 3790RD (~16,600 loaded), we immediately ordered a new RAM 3500 truck. Now, even with an extra 5000+ lbs of trailer, the rig is much more solid.

Chief Brown, your MHC will put you overweight on the payload of your truck. Some are comfortable towing a bit over payload, due to either having the factory air suspension or adding aftermarket air bags for extra support. I sure don't want you to think that I am giving any advice to you here, but I will say that I am also not in the camp of being the "weight police". There are times that I would have been overweight on my payload on my past rig, but I did my research and knew that I was not over on my rear axle, nor on my tires.

Here's some math, in case it's helpful...
-payload is restricted as noted, due to an arbitrary weight classification
-your tires are likely the same as on the 3500s (likely load rating 125, or 3640lbs each, or over 7200lbs for each axle for a combined total of over 14,000lbs)
-your front and rear axle ratings are ~6000lbs each, so your total "combined axle weight" max is more like ~12,000lbs
-let's round up the truck weight to 8000lbs. The weight with no load in the box and with the Cummins is very front end heavy; likely ~5000lbs on the front axle and ~3000lbs on the rear.
-that means your rear axle might have as much as 3000lbs of capacity and your front axle ~1000lbs of capacity. (and your tires on each axle have more than an extra 1000lbs of safety beyond that)

Next, you can add up the weight that will go in the truck and the actual hitch weight of your trailer when loaded the way you want to load it up. It's always a good idea to load up and find a CAT scale that will weigh both the total weights and also each axle, so you know exactly where you are at, and where you might be pushing it.
Only you can decide if the risk is something you are willing to deal with. At least the above math may give you some data to help with your decision.

All the best with your decision; you have an amazing truck and a great trailer. If you can trade up to a 3500 that would be ideal, but perhaps your 2500 may work if you load your MHC lightly.

Brad

[Foldbak]

I don't want to rattle the weight police but To simplify this, the newer 2500 HD diesel trucks can pull a house off a foundation but the tongue weight isn't rated for a fully loaded fifth wheel. In many of the newer trucks like my GMC the only difference between 2500 and a 3500 is the spring packs. Axles, frame and brakes all the same. Chances are the truck will perform just fine if you are a conciseness driver and not a speed demon. If something were to happen legally you would be screwed. Dually's are popular because they are so much more stable with all that meat on the ground. My trailer is 11697 lbs empty and with the gen and all the other crap it's probably close to 13500 lbs. I'm not going to suggest that you do anything dangerous or illegal but I'm comfortable in my rig at reasonable speeds and avoiding hard stops. At the end of the day....as long as you're not the cause, being involved in a catastrophic situation isn't going to mater if it's a 2500 or a 3500. My 2 cents...

[77cruiser]

Thankfully the WP aren't as aggressive here as the other sight.

[team bradfield]

you're gonna need a bigger truck, sorry

[Foldbak]

Originally Posted by 77cruiser

Thankfully the WP aren't as aggressive here as the other sight.

The exact reason I left the other site! I was filleted like a flounder over there for even speaking! How dare I have an opinion!
BTW as far as brakes are concerned I'm amazed at the stopping power of the trailer brakes on their own! I tried them at 35mph and wow. They didn't lock up and they stopped the truck. Of course I was controlling them preventing a lock up.

[Chief Brown]

Originally Posted by kowbra

On the RAM 2500 they use coil springs but leaf springs on the 3500.
One other note on the RAM 2500, the coil springs are mounted inboard from where the leaf springs are mounted on the 3500s. This makes for a fantastic ride, but does create some challenges when towing, such as sway.

Our last rig was a RAM 2500 with the factory air suspension, towing a 11,000lb Jayco and it did good overall. However, when the conditions were "wrong", there could be some sway. It was usually good with winds, but rutted up 2 lane highways could be a handful. I never felt that the truck had issues pulling or stopping, but be aware of the potential for sway. Once we knew we were upgrading to a Montana 3790RD (~16,600 loaded), we immediately ordered a new RAM 3500 truck. Now, even with an extra 5000+ lbs of trailer, the rig is much more solid.

Chief Brown, your MHC will put you overweight on the payload of your truck. Some are comfortable towing a bit over payload, due to either having the factory air suspension or adding aftermarket air bags for extra support. I sure don't want you to think that I am giving any advice to you here, but I will say that I am also not in the camp of being the "weight police". There are times that I would have been overweight on my payload on my past rig, but I did my research and knew that I was not over on my rear axle, nor on my tires.

Here's some math, in case it's helpful...
-payload is restricted as noted, due to an arbitrary weight classification
-your tires are likely the same as on the 3500s (likely load rating 125, or 3640lbs each, or over 7200lbs for each axle for a combined total of over 14,000lbs)
-your front and rear axle ratings are ~6000lbs each, so your total "combined axle weight" max is more like ~12,000lbs
-let's round up the truck weight to 8000lbs. The weight with no load in the box and with the Cummins is very front end heavy; likely ~5000lbs on the front axle and ~3000lbs on the rear.
-that means your rear axle might have as much as 3000lbs of capacity and your front axle ~1000lbs of capacity. (and your tires on each axle have more than an extra 1000lbs of safety beyond that)

Next, you can add up the weight that will go in the truck and the actual hitch weight of your trailer when loaded the way you want to load it up. It's always a good idea to load up and find a CAT scale that will weigh both the total weights and also each axle, so you know exactly where you are at, and where you might be pushing it.
Only you can decide if the risk is something you are willing to deal with. At least the above math may give you some data to help with your decision.

All the best with your decision; you have an amazing truck and a great trailer. If you can trade up to a 3500 that would be ideal, but perhaps your 2500 may work if you load your MHC lightly.

Brad

I did fail to mention this 2500 has the air suspension system on it. I look at the axle rating, 6000# and the tire rating (E range) 3000#, and I feel a little better. Hopefully not a false sense of security.

[bshgto]

Originally Posted by mlh

If I had a nice 2020 Ram I would try pulling your camper to see how it pulled. You certainly have enough power and the only difference between your truck and a 3500 SRW is the rear springs. If you need to put the extra spring on it.
Lynwood

This is a good idea Assuming the axle, wheel bearings and the rating of the TIRES tires tires tires are the same as a 350 but along with a extra spring and a 350 spring mounting block which is different than a 250 is readily available on line the other parts can be changed out to (the axle might be a little tough) but still way cheaper than a new truck.