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03-07-2008, 02:55 PM
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#21
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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Sounds pretty much like the leak I had last week. You are going to have to drop that underbelly to clean everything up under there.I did call the black tank vendor and thay said the vent pipe IS glued into the black tank. If you got dirty water in the Basement(we did not) and the dirty water did not come up through the John I would suspect a crack in the vent pipe ..However.. in my 3400 the top of the black tank is right up against the floor and if the tank was very full and it was sloshing around in there I could see how it might slosh up around the vent pipe and into the basement.. That underbelly will have to come down so you can look around.It is easy to get down..up is another story//may I offer a suggestion..There is dirty water in the underbelly..when you take the screws out...be verrryyyy careful...The good news is that silver stuff will dry out and not hold any oder.
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03-08-2008, 01:17 AM
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#22
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 176
M.O.C. #6077
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Mrs. CountryGuy
Gotta say, that it is our opinion that driving with almost full tanks is a disaster waiting for a place to happen. Also 30 pounds of ice?? that is a lot of weight bouncing around down there.
Sorry, but that is our take on it, would never do either.
When we feel our tanks need a bit of cleaning, we dump, add about 3 gallons of water per, a bit of the calgon, laundry soap, and in the toilet, a 1/3rd of a cup of bleach. We run with just those 3 gallons, and that sloshes around.
The use of ice is quite controverisal as well. Our stand is that the Calgon will do a much better job of cleaning than some ice cubes.
Again, our opinion, tho gotta say, we are rather strong in this one.
ON EDIT: One of our concerns is how much can these tanks really take, we are constantly reading here on the forum that so and so has a leaky tank, then, another, and another, and on and on. If you have 38 gallons of water/and other stuff in there, you are getting close to 300 pounds of stuff in there, and 30 pounds of ice in this case. We do NOT trust these tanks enough to haul around 300 pounds of fluids at 65 MPH down the smooth (err, read that tongue in cheek for BUMPY) roads. 3 gallons on the other hand would be about 18 pounds. Quite a difference. Until we stop hearing reports that these tanks are springing leaks and that they are correctly installed with STRAPS, as per the vendor, there is no way we are gonna haul 300 pounds of stuff around. Again, we feel quite strongly about this, I'll go duck while you flame me.
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Mrscountryguy, whats your beef with the ice? Its just textured water. Id think a 2 lb bag of ice with some calgon sloshing around would do a much better job of scrubbing chunks of TP out of the tank than just water.
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03-08-2008, 02:51 AM
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#23
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: _
Posts: 5,238
M.O.C. #6337
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Morning all, lets see how I can respond to Snownyet this early, while I have my java (something a bit ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww about coffee and pooooo, but, I'll give it a shot!)
1.) No one can see in the tanks, so we are not really sure what affect ice may have. Maybe one of those back up mirrors could be installed?? More ewwwwwwwwwwww, you could watch the sloshing in your truck monitor as you ran down the road. Just kidding people! HA HA
2.) Ice is HARD, like rocks. We don't want rock hard stuff smacking the sides of our tanks, possibly doing damage, of, course, since we cannot see in there, we won't know there is damage till we get the dreaded black stuff running out on the ground or somewhere, more ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
Other points:
1.) Sensors are always bad. Don't pay attention to any of them, cept the fresh water one, and question it.
2.) More water. ALWAYS, MORE MORE MORE!
3.) Less paper, ALWAYS, LESS LESS LESS! The lightly used stuff goes in a trash can, not in the toilet. ALWAYS!! They did it for years with boat toilets. Worked for them.
4.) Flush, flush, flush, part 2 of number 2 above. Get that clear elbow thingy and flush till clean. Flush frequently, not once a camping season.
5.) Use paper that passes the dissolve test, the RV safe stuff MAY not pass, last test a friend did, it flunked. We have started using only White Cloud, one ply, yes, one ply. Those that have read our posts before will distinctly remember I have always said, NO ONE PLY for this gal. But, the White Cloud passes the dissolve test and it passed my "is it soft and thick enough test" .
Other things that cross my clouded thoughts, ha ha, white cloud, clouded, okkkk, I need more coffee:
If it is a hot day, it is our take that you would need to put that ice down there just before you pull out on the highway, any delay would start melting, cut affectiveness and waste the ice.
You cannot get ice down the galley or gray tanks, and believe me, if you have seen the concrete like substance that can collect in those tanks you would think, hey, this stuff is at least as bad as the TP on the sides of the black tank.
Why waste ice and $$ on this??? If you have an onboard ice maker, this will not come into the equation, but, I can think of many other much more pleasant uses for $2.00 to $10.00 worth of ice. Manhattans come to mind!
It is our opinion that if you use the right TP - keeping the excesses out of the black tank, lots of water, flush the system frequently, use a few cents worth of Calgon (vs several dollars of ice), and questionable results, that the use of ice is a waste of a good resource.
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03-08-2008, 03:40 AM
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#24
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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Carol..You done good with little coffee. Seems to me that ice rattling around in the tank will do more damage than good.
Use TP that will pass the ..disolve in water test... use lots of water..TP will not clog or collect if it dissolves in water. Flush throughly and frequently..Don't just pull the handle and be done..let the tank fill and use the down pressure to flush the tank..do that till the water is clear. Try this experiment..flush the tanks..put in about 10 gals or so of water only...drive to your next C'G..pull the handle..Wow.. Calgon or any cheap like product will keep the tank slippey and ...it is also a de oderizer. Do not forget the other holding tanks.. as for the guages not working ..that is so..In my case I found it had nothing to do with defective guages, or "stuf" collecting on them..It was poor installation from the factory. When I had to drop my underbelly we got the black and grey tank guages working by tightening the external connections and adding a .3 cent lock washer to each connection.
Running with full tanks... you may note that most of us who have been to the factory and took note of how they are installed..don't do that..I would highly recommend that you...don't do that. Water 8.333 lbs per gal at 38/40 gals= to much weight to be bouncing up and down..
I also need more Coffee... Wind here.. In Florida..We are rocking ..
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03-08-2008, 08:38 AM
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#25
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land O Lakes
Posts: 2,751
M.O.C. #7753
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Update: called Sun Coast RV in JAX and they will call me back Monday, also emailed Keystone and haven't heard back yet. Probably hear on Monday. I let it dry out till today and ran the flush which came out the under belly almost as fast as it went in. So the split or hole is low on the tank or on the bottom . The sewer oder is starting to get harch inside now, I am keeping it aired out as best as I can but this has me really P----- Off. This is getting to be a very bad situation. I don't think Carol's coffee will help much, am thinking about large quantities of alcohol... Dave and Betsy
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03-08-2008, 01:25 PM
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#26
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: _
Posts: 5,238
M.O.C. #6337
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Poor Dave,
I will not tell you what I thought when I read your thoughts about alcohol. I just cannot be that much of a brat!
Alcohol does sound like a good solution bout now. If you have not done so yet
GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!
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03-08-2008, 04:32 PM
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#27
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Montana Master
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Texas City
Posts: 5,736
M.O.C. #7673
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y'all have such a crappy outlook on things!!!
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03-12-2008, 05:44 AM
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#28
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land O Lakes
Posts: 2,751
M.O.C. #7753
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Another Update: Have appointment at Campers World (formerly Bill Waits RV) in Pooler(Savannah) Georgia on the 20th. Keystone really needs to have a dedicated search for AUTHORIZED SERVICE CENTERS instead of just dealers. I have searched most of the Keystone products and find neither of the local repair facilities listed anywhere. CW and Dick Gore RV are Keystone Auth. warranty centers. Anyway I got this info from Matt at Keystone and it makes things a lot easier although not that timely. On the 20th they will drop the pan and look. Not fix, just look. Then they will order and then wait. So we will have to either sit there or they will have to button it back up and let us find a campground for the two weeks or so that they say it will take them to get the new tank . Gee I hope I don't sound discouraged. Oh Well, will just have to sit it out and wait for the next thing to crap out (no pun intended)... Dave and Betsy
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03-12-2008, 06:06 AM
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#29
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: _
Posts: 5,238
M.O.C. #6337
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Dave,
Take your mind off it, run into Savannah for the St. Paddy's days activities! Green beer, parades, food that is sooooooooo yummy, ahhhhhhhh, Savannah in the spring. Maybe it will help???
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03-12-2008, 05:35 PM
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#30
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: South
Posts: 2,499
M.O.C. #5140
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Keystone (Montana customer service) actually suggested putting *some* ice down the black tank.
After we have sat for a few months, and the capacity of the black tank decreases due to build up of various substances, we hook up and, just as we are about to leave, I put one bag of 7 lbs of ice down the toilet. After driving an hour or so, I stop and put another bag of ice down the toilet. Once at our destination, I, like Carol suggests, flush, flush, flush - for about an hour or so.
Our sensors are actually working after this sequence - just a plus.
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03-12-2008, 10:06 PM
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#31
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: _
Posts: 5,238
M.O.C. #6337
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Michael,
I find it interesting that you notice diminshed capacity after sitting on one campsite for extended period of time. Wondering how you can tell?? as that is something we do not notice, wondering if we just don't know ?????
Anyway, we do that flush flush flush thing at least once a week while on full service campsites, with clear elbow, we are pretty sure we don't have a "build up". That is why I am interested in your comments. I believe I have seen you post that before, so, I believe you, just not quite sure in my ole clouded mind , how or what, or whatever!
I am sure some of the service people at Keystone suggested the ice routine, I have heard that story for years, years, years. I did not really buy it then, and I have not changed my ideas about it. I still don't want that weight in there bouncing around, and surely not with the quality of holding tanks they use in the RV industry now.
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03-13-2008, 11:22 AM
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#32
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land O Lakes
Posts: 2,751
M.O.C. #7753
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Found one leak, dropped belly pan this AM Whew!!! odorous ain't the word for it. I hosed the entire front half of the belly clean and did a clorox job on the really nasty stuff. Got pics of the layout. Ran two box fans into the area to dry it all out and it was 78 today so it dried fast. There is aluminum bubble wrap insulation between the belly pan plastic and the tanks so it didn't absorb the nasty stuff. It all cleaned up nicely and I didn't see any real apparent leaks at the time, so I assumed that it was just the toilet pipe or the vent pipe.. WRONG!!! I was drying some of the hard to get to spaces with a towel on a broom stick and was wiping the very bottom of the black tank as I thought there was a puddle there. There was and it was coming from one of the flared ridges on the bottom of the black tank. There was some drips there and I wiped them off, again and again. Then the light went on, there is a leak. I went over and started the flush and came back and looked and now it was a small stream and not a drip. TADA!! The bubble wrap was keeping the leak to a minimum when the belly pan was slapped up against it but now with the pan dropped it was very drippy. I reinstalled the belly pan panels (getting wet and a bit stinky in the process) Now it isn't leaking as bad and we still have to wait till the 20th to get in for a repair. I have sent the pics to Keystone and CW as evidence that I need a new tank. As to whether they decide to order a new tank between now and then is anybodies guess. We go in on the 20th and they drop the pan and find what I did and then order a new tank or they can take my photos and decide to order one now and just replace it on the 20th. If they don't order it now then we will be stuck from the 20th till they decide to get the tank in stock.. IT'S MILLER TIME!!!
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03-13-2008, 11:55 AM
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#33
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Montana Master
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sunshine
Posts: 1,445
M.O.C. #538
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Why didn't you put a patch on the tank while it was apart? I have my gray tank draining now so I can patch a crack. Kit says that epoxy takes 30 minutes to cure.
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03-13-2008, 01:03 PM
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#34
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land O Lakes
Posts: 2,751
M.O.C. #7753
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I thought that these tanks had to be plastic welded. Also it was actively dripping and wasn't sure it would seal on wet surface. The Belly pan was just dropped down on the curb side since the street side has the propane pipe screwed to the frame on that side and that was a can of worms that I didn't want to open just yet. We are holding flushing till toilet is full then we start power flush and then flush toilet three times each full to the rim. The tanks are mounted length wise side to side. The gray is in the very front, the black is just below the wall between the laundry and bathroom. The Galley tank is behind the wheels and the fresh is just in front of the bumper. I will be posting more pics of this project as soon as I finish showering..
Please use the shortened version for the links. Thank you. RVWheels
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc106/
exnavydiver/Busted%20Black%20Tank/IMG_02082.jpg
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc106/
exnavydiver/Busted%20Black%20Tank/IMG_0177.jpg
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03-13-2008, 04:31 PM
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#35
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Montana Master
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sunshine
Posts: 1,445
M.O.C. #538
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RV stores have a kit ($45.00) with 3 patches using 5 minute epoxy and fiberglass cloth. The secret is to get things DRY.
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03-13-2008, 04:35 PM
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#36
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land O Lakes
Posts: 2,751
M.O.C. #7753
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LOL, This is a three month old rig, I ain't fixin it, THEY ARE!!!
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03-17-2008, 01:54 PM
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#37
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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Those tanks are ABS plastic( As per the vendor) you can repair a small leak..we did a couple of weeks ago. Unless you can get it fixed real fast . I took pictures, talked to the vendor and my extended wattanty company. fixed the leak and will have the tank replaced at the fall rally.
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03-19-2008, 12:42 AM
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#38
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Winthrop Harbor
Posts: 1,831
M.O.C. #8160
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We have used a bag of ice as well as Calgon in the black tank on our 2002 Cedar Creek since we purchased it without any problems. The logic being that the Calgon softens and the ice helps to break up the "leftovers". We will continue the process with our new Montana.
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03-20-2008, 02:18 AM
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#39
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: meridian
Posts: 73
M.O.C. #8171
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May be a stupid question but not sure what you mean by the toilet burping. We have the 2955 and because the gauges never work we are not sure how long we can go without dumping. It is just the two of us.
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03-20-2008, 07:28 AM
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#40
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Montana Master
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sunshine
Posts: 1,445
M.O.C. #538
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Just listen to the sound when you flush you toilet. You can tell when the tank is almost full.
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