Lubricity and ULSD - Montana Owners Club

firetrucker · 10-02-2007, 11:52 AM

I just got this information from a post on the Escapees forum:

At the national HDT rally in Wichita, a fuel distributor said that ULSD does not meet OEM requirements for lubricity, and an additive should be added to each tank.

The post referenced a study posted on another forum (Diesel Place) that rated the additives (this is part of a very long thread BTW):

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=177728

Interesting, to say the least. I've been using a quart of transmission fluid in every three or four tankfuls, and I'd say that I wasn't using enough. Of course, that fluid wasn't tested, but 2 cycle oil was, and it did quite well.

Bob

happy campers · 10-02-2007, 12:47 PM

I guess it would be asking too much for the automakers to let us know that. The study you mentioned is intersting reading; all diesel owners should read it.

Montana Sky · 10-02-2007, 01:20 PM

I have been running GM's Diesel Fuel Conditioner since September of 2006. I decided on running the additive because of the adverse affects the new fuel was having on my truck.

On Edit,
The adverse affect I am referring to is loss of power, and a reduction of 2+ mpg in fuel economy. After running through the first tank of "treated fuel" with the diesel conditioner, my fuel economy came back and the power returned. The increased fuel economy pays for the diesel conditioner, plus it cannot hurt the fuel system by adding extra lubricity to each tank.

Glenn and Lorraine · 10-02-2007, 01:38 PM

My 05 Duramax has been performing flawlessly on ULSD. I now have over 40,000 miles on ULSD and with the exception of a collapsed air filter I have yet to have any problems with my Duramax I have not noticed any difference in performance either.

bsmeaton · 10-02-2007, 02:42 PM

Help me understand -

I drive my diesel and develop a severe wear problem while under the 100,000 mile warranty. Would the factory be inclined to reject my repair because I failed to use an additive, or would they be more inclined to reject my repair because I was adding 2-stroke oil to my gas tank?

firetrucker · 10-02-2007, 03:18 PM

Brad, it certainly would depend on what fuel your engine was designed for, and whether the manufacturer recommended an additive to increase lubricity. Most all that I know of allow additives that affect the gel point of diesel, and there are winter and summer formulations for diesel fuel, just as for gasoline. Notice that the best additive for lubricity is 2% biodiesel, and most manufacturers allow at least 5% biodiesel mixes.

Good question, though. The lubricity of the ULSD is lower because of the lower sulfur content, so increased wear is almost guaranteed, whether you are aware of it or not.

Bob

tcorbitt · 10-03-2007, 02:44 AM

How tempting to enter this debate of mis-information given to us by the additives industry trying to suck millions of dollars from consumers utilizing all the old tactics of fear, uncertianty, and dread (FUD). Ah, the internet, what a create vehicle for creating such FUD and momentum... go Capitalism!!!

Before getting carried too far down the river... I would recommend you notice who funded and verified the reference materials cited. Hey, to be fair, they clearly state it in the materical... funded by the aftermarket additive groups.... who really want your cash...

Also, whatever you take from these type of reports/studies/etc., balance them with less biased information from sources not desparetly relying on prying additional cash from you. For example the fuel refiners, government agencies, engine manufactures, etc. For example, the one listed below from Chevron is a good start.

http://www.chevron.com/products/prod...ulsd.shtml#A13

Bottom line from everything I have read, ULSD reduced emmissions. Yes, a slight hit on performance and mileage is to be expected (1%) as a cost for this added benefit to the environment. Lubricity in fuel is a valid concern. The standard for this was introduced in 2005 in preparation for the impacts on ULSD (ref above report and many others from the EPA, etc, etc). Other than that, drive and enjoy without worrying about stuffing anything but the diesel from the pump into your tank. Sure ULSD for Jan 2007 and newer trucks should be used. Anti-jel agents if your stuck in and area below 0 degress F.

Just my 2cents, not trying to start any kind of emotional debate, just suggesting a more comprehensive look at the changes should be considered before running out puring more cash into the tank...

Tim

(one pet peeve if I may have one.... lubricity is not reduced by the lowering of sulfur. It is reduced by the refining process used to remove the sulfur. To maintain a level required that will not increase wear, additives have already been put in at the refinary starting 2 years before ULSD was being delivered. )

richfaa · 10-03-2007, 03:48 AM

I hate it when someone interjects common sense and facts into a debate..

bncinwv · 10-03-2007, 04:55 AM

Good point Rich. Doesn't the new owners manual say no additives for warranty purposes???? I seem to remember reading that somewhere??? Mine is a classic 07 so it may be different????
Bingo

richfaa · 10-03-2007, 01:25 PM

The 08 Ford manual says you can use some additives and list what you can use and of course they are all motorcraft brand. They also suggest that you do not use any additive for the first few thousand miles so that it can break in properly. We will experement when we get some miles on the truck..

Eagle Man · 10-03-2007, 03:01 PM

I did not see a reference on the 'study.' Was it done by a guy trying to sell us an additive? Everything I have read, including my owner's manual, says additives are not needed. And, that's backed by a 100k warranty.

ols1932 · 10-03-2007, 03:27 PM

I used Lucas Fuel Treatment on my '95 with original diesel fuel and I still continue to use it with ULSD. If it works, why monkey with it. Have never noticed any decrease in mpg. This is not meant to create an argument--just my experience, and I don't believe anyone can find fault with actual experience.

Orv

Ozzie · 10-03-2007, 04:18 PM

Like Orv, I also use a treatment for my diesel. As long as the slight increase in mileage comes close to covering the cost, I feel better knowing I have a little more protection.
The jury is still out for the low sulfer fuels from what I hear, and I'd rather play it safe.

garyka · 10-03-2007, 04:20 PM

I have been using Stanadyne in my duramax(03)for the last year.I buy it by the case on line.GM allows this additive.If it is doing any good or not I don't know but is gives me piece of mind knowing it's not hurting anything

firetrucker · 10-03-2007, 05:10 PM

My final words!

The lubricity of the ULSD is lower because of (refining used to produce) the lower sulfur content.

The study was supported by members of the Diesel Place forum, as well as some, but not all, additive manufacturers, and it was conducted by a reputable, independent research group.

Most additives in gasoline and diesel are put in at the distribution point rather than at the refinery, which calls into question the consistency of the formulation. For ULSD, they are added to get the fuel to the recommended wear scar level of 520 microns, consistent with diesel before ULSD, but not to the engine manufacturers desired level of 460 microns.

Soy biodiesel, and maybe by association all biodiesel, resulted in the best improvement in lubricity. An effective additive, at least for older engines, is 2-cycle oil.

Most engine manufacturers and vehicle manufacturers allow the use of additives with some explicit restrictions. GM, for instance, says that the additive must not contain alcohol or an emulsifier (see the GM bulletin quoted in the thread on Diesel Place). Cummins specifically has a procedure that injects used oil into the diesel fuel in order to increase the period between oil changes to 500,000 miles.

The tests were run on fuel that diesel customers could not obtain, that is, without additives, so that the effects of the additives could be more precisely measured using established and accepted testing techniques.

A number of additives were shown to be useless in increasing lubricity (but may have accomplished the other claims that are made from them). Only lubricity was tested.

Lubricity is important to protect the engine against wear.

Read the report, read the thread, learn, and don't believe in magic.

Bob

richfaa · 10-03-2007, 11:51 PM

Firetruckers post agrees with information passed on my a retired Shell oil exec friend (and fellow Lion). Human nature suggest that when facts do not agree with what we beleive in or are doing..we reject the facts. The issue is Lubricity in the new motors that use ULSD.. We need to make sure we are using a product that will increase lubricity.. The manufacturers include that information in their specs///that is if you pay any attention to specs..

rvfirefighter · 10-04-2007, 01:27 AM

I would like to interject another question into this topic. How does the lubricity of off road diesel compare to the make-up of USLD? Is there any difference other than no tax?

bsmeaton · 10-04-2007, 05:32 AM

Ahhhh - it is a free country...but here is a twist:

The sole purpose for ULSD fuel is to reduce air pollution - Nothing else - something we all know needs to be done. Our government spends a bazillion of yours and my tax dollars to do the study and pass legislation to reduce diesel emissions. Refineries spend another bazillion dollars developing and delivering the ULSD fuel. We are paying the refineries back for that cost with the >$3.00 a gal price tag and diesel costs now higher than gasoline. Now, because of aftermarketer induced paranoia, we are adding lubrication additives that most likely are increasing pollution emmissions to at least, if not greater than, that of the previous fuels. (2-cycle oil - give me a break!!. My unleaded gasoline powered car would get less engine wear if I poured 2-cycle oil in the tank. That was a real scientific discovery, wasn't it? or Transmission Fluid!! Please don't drive through my town burning transmission fluid in your diesel!)

So what have we accomplished. Between the cost for diesel and the unnecessary additive.......we are now spending almost $4.00 a gallon for fuel, and because we are paranoid about how many microns we score the cylinder walls in our trucks, we have accomplished NOTHING!. We are still polluting and the aftermarketers continue to prosper!

Gentleman - with few exceptions I don't see a truck over 5 years old out there on the MOC, yet these diesels have lifespan of over 300,000 miles! What could you possibly care if you get a little more wear on these dinosaurs if it means getting a little cleaner air. Your truck will still be hauling chickens somewhere south of the border long after you are 6-ft under! Quit worrying about the truck and start worrying about you and the air you and your offspring will be breathing.

Something to think about.

richfaa · 10-04-2007, 05:50 AM

Holy smoke.. we are full of common sense and facts this week..

Montana Sky · 10-04-2007, 06:56 AM

With a cost of over $5,000 to replace the injectors in a Duramax, many of us "Pre ULSD" guys are running the additives to help maintain the fuel system as long as possible. My truck is an 04, which makes it just shy of 4 years old. The thing already has 80,000+ miles on it and by the time it turns 5, the truck will be well passed 105,000 miles...about half the anticipated lifespan of the truck. I will continue to run the additives in my truck until my injectors or fuel system fails, then will have the dealership investigate the cause of failure.

Having said that; I am not sure how other states work, but up here in Washington, diesel trucks still have to go through the strict new emissions check every few years. I just had mine done (not required, but did for possibility of moving to another state) and after 25,000+ miles of running the additive, the truck passed. I asked the fella working there, where was my trucks rating within the accepted range? He said dead center. While maybe my truck is the exception, that readout and PASS is all the proof I need to know I am still doing my part to help reduce emissions while providing the best maintenance and protection for my truck.

Of course when I buy a new ULSD diesel truck, I will no longer run the additives.

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