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Old 02-03-2008, 11:47 AM   #41
richfaa
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Indy..we have both a BP bulk station and a Marathon Bulk (Ashland oil) very near our home base. We use Marathon in our school busses (Speedway) and it was tested for cetane and lubricity and was within limits.. The BP bulk farm is just a few miles from our driveway and we stopped by one day asked a thousand questions and got the grand tour. Bp Diesel, at least in our area is within limits. The bus company that I drove for before bought Diesel by the tanker and ordered the mix they wanted which was the most " cost effective". Our fuel logs using Speedway diesel , the good stuff, indicated a 2MPG loss when we went to the ULSD. The school I drive for now does not use a additive..we do use anti gell although we plug in the diesel when the temp reaches 20 degrees F.

What that report and others indicated to me along with some homework on Cetane rating, Lubricity and the new Diesel motors was that we can not be sure that the fuel we are using as we travel across the country meet the standards.. One jobber may do the right thing and another may choose the "cost effective " way. My guess is that your company is ordering fuel to their spec's and it meets spec's and they can do that because they use Zillions of Gallons per year. I have no problem using BP and Marathon in my home base because I know it meets specs but there is uncertainty on the road..so we use a additive.. I guess there should be some sort of enforcement for diesel fuel as to its content.
 
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:51 PM   #42
MacDR50
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Another bit of information. In Canada the required limit is 460 microns. A lot of good information on ULSD here including it's lower energy rating.

http://www.cppi.ca/ULSD_Q_A_s.html
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:48 AM   #43
turley
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I use a quarter of transmission fluid every other tank of diesel; seems to work for me.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:47 AM   #44
sreigle
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This topic relates to one of my many gaps in knowledge and understanding. So I hope you'll bear with me as I ask possibly a dumb question. And maybe someone can address this question.

For many, many years, jobbers have added various additives to gasoline. For jobbers delivering to multiple brands, they added the additive package specified for each brand. They may have done the same during winter for diesel, when #2 diesel required anti-gelling additives (I'm not sure the jobbers did this).

Rich, thanks for the link. Very informative article. Does anyone know of a test of ULSD brands after the jobber adds the additives to see how well those additives actually work?

So, there seems to be a lot of concern about relying on the jobbers to add the lubricity additives. Why is this different than what they've done all along? Is there really any real reason for concern?

The only possible difference I can think of is that most additives to gasoline are to "add benefits" whereas the lubricity additive to diesel is to "avoid damage." On the other hand, when lead was removed from gasoline, additives had to be added to unleaded gasoline to "avoid damage." So there's really no difference other than one is gasoline and the other is diesel.

I'm not questioning whether there is benefit to adding additives ourselves. I'm not questioning whether it's a wise precaution to add the addtivies ourselves. I'm just not understanding all the concern about whether jobbers are doing their job with adding the additives. Is my thinking way off base here?




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Old 02-28-2008, 09:39 AM   #45
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Im guessing this ULSD will be like the switch to unleaded gasoline in the 70's, it'll take a couple years to work all the bugs out.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:24 AM   #46
richfaa
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There is just so much we do not know for sure. We do know that the process of refining ULSD fuel effects the Cetene rating and lowers the lubricity of the diesel fuel. Although it does not make sense that the major brands would not have some control over those levels at least I find that I can not get a definitive answer from the folks that should know.Perhaps in the near future there will be enforceable standards. We have a huge investment in this shinny new diesel truck and as long timers we depend on it. My personal feeling is that the major brands are OK as it is not logical that they would risk damage to your truck and damage to their reputation by not caring and we stay away from the 'No name or generic brands" although they may be a few cents cheaper. However we just can not take the chance so we will spend the money on approved additives that address low cetene and lubricity levels until we know better. Good insurance I guess...
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Old 03-02-2008, 07:04 PM   #47
T and J
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Good information. I have been using Lucas upper cylinder lube in my TV. ("95" Dodge Ram 3500 with V-10 (gas) engine). Lately I have been using this product in our VW Jetta diesel,'don't know if it is helping protect the engine, but very shortly after adding Lucas to the tank the engine quiets down considerably and seems to run smoother!
I will be trying Opti-Lube XPD as soon as I find some.

Thanks for the Info'
Terry
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:03 AM   #48
TLightning
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An earlier post mentioned diesel having a 30 day shelf life. This is incorrect if the fuel has a preserver added. At my marina, many diesels sit all winter after being treated with Sta-Bil or a similar product, and start and run fine in the spring...mine included.
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:30 AM   #49
richfaa
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Normal diesel has a 30 day shelf life. Normal diesel that we purchase from a fuel station does not have a preserver or stablizer added to it. You can get the same preserver or stablizer for gasoline also.I think the point being made was that you should purchase diesel from a station with high volume sales so as to reduce the probability of pumping old fuel...
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Old 03-03-2008, 01:09 PM   #50
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Anyone care to comment on "Premium Diesel" fuel.
One local station sells it at a slight premium. I forget what all the benefits are that are posted on their pump. Filled up with it once.
Usually I fuel up a nearby Wal-Mart's Murphy Station.
So far so good...?
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Old 03-03-2008, 02:20 PM   #51
richfaa
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Here is a good link that answers that and many other questions,,It is a Myth buster article so be prepared.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/m...and_diesel.htm

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Old 03-03-2008, 03:21 PM   #52
Waynem
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Thanks for the link Rich.
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Old 03-04-2008, 03:58 AM   #53
richfaa
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We fueled at a Hess Express station here on the Disney Complex this AM. First time I have ever seen the Cetene rating posted on the diesel pump . It read centene level 40..That is not near good enough for my shinny new diesel truck thus the reason we use a booster additive.
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Old 03-04-2008, 07:19 AM   #54
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I believe that if you look at the cetane sticker it will read "minimum 40 cetane". I find that aplies to every diesel pump I've used in Florida.
So the cetane may be 42 or 44 but at least it's 40.
Hugh
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:50 AM   #55
sreigle
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The only cetane stickers I've seen say "minimum 40", also. No way to know actual cetane rating.

Good article, Rich. I wish those articles were all prominently dated, although most of the info in this one is relevant no matter the date. It does say the ultra clean standards should be ready by 2000 so that gives me an idea of its age. Still, it's a good article.
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:34 AM   #56
richfaa
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You guys are correct..the stickers do say min 40 cetane...It had been torn off on that pump.. That article was a pre ULSD article but everything was still relevant. The new ULSD I think would just make some things worse.When a gas pump says 87 Octane you can be relatively sure it is correct...You just never know with the Cetane rating and with the ULSD fuel that is a important factor.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:42 AM   #57
c214dick
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Here's a quote from Cummins regarding their position and explanation regarding the new ULSD fuel.

"There are many rumors circulating about the effects of sulfur being in diesel fuel or sulfur being taken out of diesel fuel. Diesel fuel without sulfur is just as good, in all respects except one, when compared with today's fuels with sulfur.

The only negative effect of taking sulfur out of fuel is that the fuel becomes more expensive, somewhat negating the inherent cost advantage of running diesel engines when compared to other fuels. It has to be removed using specialized equipment and chemical processes that add to the expense of producing the fuel.

We have seen a very few instances where the reduced aromatic content of the fuel has resulted in slight leaks from fuel systems. This is not expected to be an issue with many engines.
Lubricity is the fuel quality that prevents or minimizes wear in diesel fuel injection equipment. Diesel lubricity is largely provided by trace levels of naturally occurring compounds in the fuel that form a protective layer on metal surfaces.

In order to meet the Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) specifications, refineries now utilize processes that not only reduce the sulfur content of diesel blend components, but also remove compounds that provide lubricity. This has led to some concern that ULSD fuel might result in lubricity problems for fuel injection equipment.

Should you be concerned about the fuel lubricity for your Cummins Turbo Diesel engine? The answer is no.

All diesel fuel sold in the U.S. since January 2005 must meet a fuel lubricity specification established by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM). Any fuel lubricity additives necessary to meet this new specification are added by the fuel suppliers before the fuel hits the pumps. So you do not need to add fuel lubricity additives to your highway diesel fuel.

Basically the change to new fuel should be pretty easy for folks with the engines built prior to 2007 and for customers with the engines built in 2007 it will be necessary, for the time it takes fuel stations to consume the remainder of the old fuel, to be certain they are not fueling with the older fuel.

There is an effect on diesel engines from the use of ultralow sulfur fuel which we expect to be positive. The blowby gasses that normally pass through the engine crankcase will contain much less of the chemically reactive sulfur and its compounds. This will tend to keep the engine oil cleaner during operation and allow important engine components like bushings, bearings and piston rings to live longer.

Diesel fuels containing sulfur or no sulfur each have the same specific heat, about 20,000 BTUs per pound. For that reason they give the same amounts of work for the same amount of fuel. That means the fuel economy per gallon will not be affected.

Over the years we have seen fuel economy decrease, somewhat, as diesel engine designs have been modified to meet the lower NOX limits imposed by government. This has been totally unrelated to sulfur in the fuel.

With lower sulfur fuels it is possible that some exhaust after treatment devices (catalytic converters) may be used to better effect, making it possible to further decrease harmful exhaust emissions.

If you use diesel fuel that does not meet the new federal low sulfur requirements that are going into effect for 2007, in a 2007 vehicle that requires the new fuel, it will produce particulate matter that will cause rapid plugging of the exhaust particulate trap."

For what it's worth.


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Old 04-07-2008, 11:55 AM   #58
richfaa
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That is a very good explaination but this is what concerns most folks and the refineries have no control over the fuel suppliers and their compliance with the standard. And cetene rating is not mentioned at all although other articles indicate that the rating is @ 40/41 out of the refinery and the new motors require 44/45 or so????

"All diesel fuel sold in the U.S. since January 2005 must meet a fuel lubricity specification established by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM). Any fuel lubricity additives necessary to meet this new specification are added by the fuel suppliers before the fuel hits the pumps. So you do not need to add fuel lubricity additives to your highway diesel fuel."

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Old 04-08-2008, 03:35 AM   #59
c214dick
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You're right Rich. My only concern was just what Cummins thought as they're the guys that warranty my engine, which I've used once already.

I, however have used PS in my previous Dodge and this one. The reason being that my drivers always used it in our fleet and I figured they are the ones that should know. I understand that there are a number of other additives that sound like they would be better, but if I can't walk in a store and buy it than I don't want to mess around with ordering it.
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Old 04-08-2008, 04:45 AM   #60
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Seems like we have a definite difference in what is being said -- (IllTracker (?)when writing back on page 4 says "......he said NO that Marathon fernery where they get there diesel from had posted that the diesel they produce did not need added lubricity.... ) ; while on page 6 C214dick cites "...All diesel fuel sold in the U.S. since January 2005 must meet a fuel lubricity specification established by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM). Any fuel lubricity additives necessary to meet this new specification are added by the fuel suppliers before the fuel hits the pumps....". So we have written guidance that tells us the jobber will be adding the necessary additives to meet lubricity requirements and a 'jobber' (or retailer) telling us that they don't do it because the fuel doesn't need it. I was just looking for another quote where the refinery states that their product does not meet the requirements without the additives being added by the jobber at the bulk plant.

Couldn't find it quickly ---

So, I just called our local BP (well, he was BP and is now CENEX) dealer and asked the question -- 'When you fill your bulk tanker to go fill construction sites, your contracts, whomever, -- just what do you add to the fuel if anything?' He told me he adds antigel in season (which he is now stopping because the temperature should be high enough not to need it any longer); he adds two other chemical compounds - one for algae suppression and the other for increasing the lubrication.

I then asked him if these were added by the plant or himself, and how? He told me that the algae suppression is a tube that goes in the flow of fuel as it goes from the bulk plant into his tanker and is added as the fuel is coming into the tank. He never really sees anything going in - just knows that when he turns the valve on, he trusts it is being added at the same time. The other two are added by his drivers (or himself when he is driving) using liquid measures following amounts/instructions provided from a table (so many gallons of each for so many gallons in the tanker trailer tank). One last question - does the fuel get tested to ensure there was enough added - said that BP used to require he pull a small sample every week but he had nothing from CENEX as yet.

Was very willing to talk to me this morning - actually surprised me but it has been raining and he was bored I guess. Regardless, this is how one delivery jobber does it -- has 4 large tankers (2 semi-tractor/trailer type and two that are 500 or 800 gallon single truck/tanker fueler type vehicles.) Figure he knows what he is doing, I've been buying my fuel from him for years and have had no problems (knock-on-wood).
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