On Discussing Tow Vehicles - Montana Owners Club

stiles watson · 05-31-2006, 07:59 PM

Here I go again, making everyone mad. I have really enjoyed this forum and one of the reasons is that it has always been friendly even in disagreement. We have disagreed on several topics, but always with dignity. Some of the other RV forums I visited in the beginning were akin to political mud slinging. The most prominent of this verbal bombardment was over the TV question. Names were called, denigrating phrases were used, etc. I chose not to frequent those forums.

On the MOC, over the last couple of months, I detect a shift from the earlier TV discussions. It seems a few of us have become what might be called "tow vehicle evangelists". We have stopped sharing opinions and started preaching sermons and expounding in terms of absolutes. Some of the pronouncements border on saying, "If you don't agree with me, you're an idiot."

It is my hope that this trend will abate to ensure we maintain a high level of mutual respect and civility.

jrgwdenner · 06-01-2006, 02:06 AM

Well said, as usual, Stiles. It does seem that the atmosphere of several threads has changed in the last few months and not for the good. The MOC forum has always been a site reflecting a friendly, family atmosphere and I personally hate to see a trend toward changing this distinction. Controversy just for the sake of controversy doesn't fit here. Nor does the idea of trying to push ones choices on others. Are we longing for the good old days?

CRUZIN 2 · 06-01-2006, 03:54 AM

I agree with Stiles, he has said it the way we are seeing it on the forum. We all need to keep a pleasant attitude and the forum will be a great place to visit. Happy Camping

Larry & LaVonne

richfaa · 06-01-2006, 04:10 AM

Don't think that you ever made anyone mad..a opinion is a opinion we are all entitled to them (within reason of course)..freedom of speech and all that you know... There are some folks that are way more opinionated than others but then again..they are entitled. Now if if you may be referring to the individual who may say this brand of truck, in this configuration is the only possible way to go and if you don't go that way you are a idiot//well that is over opinionated and I really don't think that anyone of average intelligence would pay any attention to it and I do not recall any post of that nature on this forum. If you are referring to the individual that points out that the TV of your configuration is exceeding documented manufactures weight specifications and may not be the safe or wise thing to do..That is informative and educational information and should be shared. I have learned more about Tv's and Campers on this forum both good and bad than I have ever learned anywhere and I would like that to continue.And with all due respect..there never was any good old days..

jrgwdenner · 06-01-2006, 04:17 AM

With all due respect, that phrase is used loosely to indicate that the way things were done before a noticed change on this forum were done in a more pleasant way, in this case anyway. So I respectfully find myself on the opposite side of your last statement. And that's my opinion.

Bill Frisbee · 06-01-2006, 05:42 AM

One of the wisest people I ever met was a man named Tommy Kingery. Tommy was a Master Sergeant who worked with me back in my USAF days. I was a brand new 2nd Lt and Tommy took me under his wing with this advice, "Lieutenant, when you are right, you are right. When you are obnoxiously right, you are wrong." Tommy Kingery would agree 100% with Stiles ... and so do I.

Bill

richfaa · 06-01-2006, 05:44 AM

In the words of Foghorn Longhorn..that was a joke..I say a Joke. The good old days are relative. Since we have only been on the forum for a bit over a year we do not know how things were or how they have changed in relation to how they were.Any unfriendly or unpleasant post on the topic of TV's must have been deleted before we got to see them.

Mac · 06-01-2006, 07:26 AM

I agree with Stiles as well and I have felt a little angst around here lately. That said it's still much more friendly than any other similar site, RV relateed or music related. It's good to get a friendly little reminder from time to time, and I think that's what Stiles was doing.

mac

Fordzilla · 06-01-2006, 07:37 AM

I for one hope I have never offended anyone while talking about TV's. But like Rich mentioned we all learn from hearing others opinions. As stated in many of the TV chats we are all going to say whatever it is we are driving is the best. I doubt you are going to hear that what we are driving is unsafe vehicle, and is not going to be very reliable down the road, or will not pull the trailer, etc...

It's what we as readers get out of what is here on the MOC that is so valuable. I have learned so much over the past few years and owe it all to the people here who expressed there opinion and felt free to do so. If we make it so people are afraid to express themselves it will not be so informative and people will loose interest. While those of us(like myself) will be missing out on learning what works for others and may or may not work for us.

Cat320 · 06-01-2006, 02:15 PM

Some very good points made here. I just counted the number of forums of which I am a member. Unless I missed some, the total is 10 that I visit regularly. I have a sailboat, so my forums are about half boating/sailing/boat engines and half RV related. Having said that, I must agree that this group is one of the two most congenial. Everybody seems to go out of their way to be courteous and helpful.

I am of the opinion that if someone joins the forum and asks a reasonable question, we owe him a reasonable, truthful and complete answer. There is some very bad information being put out as truth on the RV forum. There is one poster who continually makes the statement that " a 3/4 ton diesel pick up can tow any trailer that has four wheels and two axles." Another poster's response to a "what do I need for a TV" question, is to tell the questioner to look at his signature...where there is photo of a 3/4 ton hooked on to a tri axle, 43' Teton. These posters are not providing useful or truthful information, yet they get very defensive (and sometimes hostile) when someone questions their absurd recommendations.

Which brings me back to this forum. I joined to gather information on the Montana and what folks are using to tow it. At this time I do not have a Montana or a TV that will tow a Montana...still have a TT and 1/2 ton pickup. However, I bought my first 3/4 in 1972 and have owned a dually, so I do know a little about trailering. The problem I see with this forum is when a 'new to towing person' asks about TVs, the response is not always totally forthcoming. It's the "been towing for years, never had a problem" answer. When the complete answer would be " been towing for years, never had a problem, but I know I am over the GVWR of my truck." With the latter answer, the new person has all the information he needs in which to make a well informed decision. If he then opts for a 3/4 and being on the edge or over weight, that's fine he's made that decision consciously and is aware of all the ramifications of that decision. We should not knowingly withhold information, so someone buys a 3/4 then a few months later realizes he's over the truck weight, wants to be within truck limits and has to get another truck or downsize his trailer. If the good folks here are not going to fully respond with all the information requested, I think they should not respond at all, or expect to be questioned on their response.

As for me, the DW and I are still in the deciding stage regarding a new 5er. Tomorrow we are off to one last RV show for a second look at Nu Wa and a third look at Sunny Brook...but we are leaning toward the Montana...either the new 3075RL or the 3000RK. As for a TV, I come from a military/aviation background, where the rules, regulations, and limits, are very well defined, there is nothing in the 'gray' area. Therefore, as previously mentioned, we are leaning toward a dually.

Also, thanks to all who have helped educate us on the Montanas...lots of nice folks and great rigs.

kwbosch · 06-02-2006, 07:36 AM

I missed the post with the TV sermon. Regardless, lets all have a group hug and get back to happy RVing.

Ken

sreigle · 06-02-2006, 10:11 AM

I agree with the group hug bit. If I offended, someone email me and tell me. It was not intentional. As for being totally forthcoming, that is a very good point. It's not always even thought about so maybe someone could ask the question to get the rest of the info.

To start the ball rolling. Our 3/4 ton is within specs on GCWR and tow rating. I'm over on GVWR, given our Montana has a 3300 lb pinweight. I know I'm over and am not worried about it simply because the axle part numbers for my 3/4 ton is identical to the 1 ton. And the frame is identical as are the brakes. I do not have the extra leaf in the springs that the 1 ton has but air bags compensate for that. I am still over GVWR but with 54k on the truck it's still doing great so I'm just not worried about it. I won't buy a dually. Just my personal preference. Those who want the dually should get it. I bought the 3/4 ton because the Ford was such a hot seller at the time I could not find a 1 ton equipped the way I wanted it. I don't regret the decision because my 2005 3/4 ton has higher ratings all around than did my 2003 1 ton. If I were trading today I would first look for a 1 ton but would again go with a 3/4 ton if that's all I could fine. It does a terrific job. But I'm over on GVWR.

bob n pam · 06-02-2006, 04:44 PM

Well, I missed the whole hoo ha. Darn. But, I'm glad I made it in time for the group hug!! I can always use a good hug.

Pam

Wrenchtraveller · 06-04-2006, 03:35 PM

Stiles, you never make me angry, you make me grateful. Wise posters, such as you are, is what makes MOC such a nice place to learn about Rving. Take care and keep posting.

Dave e Victoria · 06-05-2006, 03:49 AM

A couple of observations about this site. I also visit several discussion forums. This one is one of the best mannered on the web. As to the discussion of TV's, this forum seems better informed on the subject of towing than the forums devoted to the trucks themselves. But, when it comes to the technical aspects of the trucks the truck specific forums seem better informed. However, the truck forums have such a diverse array of participants there is a lot of marginal or bad information as well as good and it takes some sifting to get through it all. They also have a lot more flaming going on.

Bottom line, it think there are two characteristics of the participants on this forum that makes it good.
1) It is a mature group -- for the most part we have out grown the sort of childish behavior thatr results in flames
2) We have a rather, narrow common interest - towing large loads for our own pleasure

As for us,
1)We have a dually because there was no truck available in a SRW that kept us safely within the tire rating (The Cambridge has a HEAVY pin weight). Other wise , we would have a SRW.
2)We have a GMC D/A because I am a GMI graduate and I still have a soft spot for GM -- besides, we get a family discount.
3)This is our second D/A tv and we are completely satisfied. We love our truck.
4) If we offend any one ever, on any subject, please drop us a note so we can learn. (OK-- don't bother on the thing about we are a mature group. I know some of you are a lot younger -- heh heh heh)

Sweetfire · 06-05-2006, 04:08 PM

I have a 2005 F350 6 Liter Diesel as my signiture indicates. I have not responded to this thread because I had not towed our 2005 3295RK more than 350 miles and it was empty at the time. After towing from Sweet, Idaho to Mt. Shasta and back (about 1,000 miles total) these last two weeks I feel I now have some experiance to base an opinion on. I do not have exact weights to share with you. We were too much in a hurry to back track the 15 miles to the scales before we left. But we did not scrimp on what we brought. We had about 20 gallons of fresh water and 8 gallons in the black tank. In retrospect we had enough food to last us another two weeks. And along with tools, compressor, chairs, folding table, BBQ & tank, Gorrilla ladder, clothes, cooking stuff, 2 sets of golf clubs, etc. we were fairly loaded.

The truck handled everything without a hicup. There was plenty of power to tow on cruise at 58-60 MPH (we were on 2 lanes all the way). Due to higher EGT I did have to back off to 50 MPH three times while climbing long steep grades but when I did temps dropped instantly to the 750-800 degree range (post-turbo probe). I DO BELIVE A PYROMETER IS A MUST FOR TOWING LARGE RV'S WITH DIESEL TV'S REGARDLESS OF TV SIZE!!

As for SRW vs DRW the single rear wheel worked flawlessly and was very stable. BUT, if you have the money, and do not mind the wider vehicle, those extra two tires would add a little piece of mind in the event of a rear tire failure or emergency braking situation. I chose the SRW because we do travel on local dirt/gravel roads and, WHEN EMPTY, DRWs can be a little squirrly on wash board roads in the summer and snow/ice in the winter (IMHO).

What it boils down to is "What are you comfortable with?" I like staying within the placarded specs on the door, wheither or not I stop at the scales

so I chose a one ton truck. If I could find a two ton truck I liked as much as my F350 I would probably want it. But I like the F350 King Ranch just fine. Not to discriminate, I'm sure the GMC LBZ engine is one towing machine, it just wasn't around in 2005. I've never owned a Dodge but they must be doing something right or they wouldn't be selling anything. Just keep in mind that in each class the TV with the highest GVRW is probably going to be a 4X2, standard cab, short box, dually, with a tow package and 410 or higher rear gears. You make your choices from there.

Firetrucker sure loves his Volvo.

SAndreasen · 06-05-2006, 04:59 PM

We have known and camped with Fordzilla for many years now. He is just like all the other memebers of the MOC family-great folks with big hearts!. He has a Ford and I have a Chevy and we still are GREAT friends! What I see happening here is just like any other family. The bigger it gets (more people) the more geometric the number of interactions are. That is just human nature. We need to (and have) shared our thoughts, feelings both our camping experiences and personal lives. God has blessed us all by putting us here and we need to share and learn from each other.

stiles watson · 06-05-2006, 08:30 PM

On my Monty and tow vehicle, I do a number of things that fall into the catagory of preventive maintenance. My reason for beginning this thread falls into the same catagory. I was noticing a tone that bothered me, so I said something.
I think many of the replies indicate others sensed the same. There were several great replies regarding specific TV's that I feel recaptured the more amiable tone. The qualities of these replies, in my opinion, have common characteristics.

The poster stated what TV he/she had decided on using
The poster stated the reasons they had made that choice
The poster DID NOT belittle or criticise the choices or the reasoning of those who may hold a different view
The poster respected the ability of other adults to distinguish for themselves the efficacy of the information shared

I think these are good models to emulate and I believe this protocol will help us to maintain the warmth and civility we all enjoy.

Thank all of you for your interest and replies.

dsprik · 06-06-2006, 02:31 AM

Stiles, you forgot "a sense of humor" - the main preventative Rx against heart attack and strokes. I must admit that I can do better at times. Like yesterday, for instance.

jrgwdenner · 06-06-2006, 02:47 AM

Stiles, I for one, had noticed the same 'tone' on the forum and had even commented to someone about it. We have more folks in the 'attack mode', for lack of a better description, which does change the atmosphere here. We are all blessed to be able to enjoy this luxury in our life (almost everyone either owns an RV or is looking into acquiring one), even though our choices are different.

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