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Old 08-30-2016, 04:49 AM   #41
jameswbarton
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Some of you have a very antiquated view of Quality and Manufacturing. You do not inspect in Quality. You make Quality part of everyone's job like many of you have said. Also a workplace with high employee turnover may have to work a little harder in employee training and selection especially in a minimum wage environment where many candidates fail drug testing, cannot read and write, and have no appreciable work ethic.

If your company has no dissatisfied customers, no rework, no wasted materials, no customer complaints then you have already built Quality into your product. A Quality Product is not the best, fanciest, or prettiest. It is merely a product that performs to and fulfills a customers expectations/requirements.
 
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Old 08-30-2016, 05:31 AM   #42
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How do you manufacture a part without a print?
First we aren't just a machine shop. Most machine shops produce parts for somebody else so they call the shots. We produce products we designed build and sell retail and some wholesale . We make so many we don't need a print. Over the years we have sold over 25,000 powder measures. More than everybody else combined that makes high end Culver type measures. We almost never have a problem with a product if we do it is fixed no question. We say everything we make is warrantied for life IF you die soon enough.
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Old 08-30-2016, 02:42 PM   #43
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Lynwood you are not making senses.

The way you put it the part just materialized and your company copies it???

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Old 08-30-2016, 02:52 PM   #44
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Someone has to be in charge of the production line.

When the company has been informed by the customer and the manufacture of the product being installed on the production line that the product is being installed incorrectly and the manufacture has informed the middle management that during the initial construction phase while the trailer is upside down the product is being installed as if the trailer is right side up and that is why the product doesn’t work and 7 years latter it is still being installed improperly indicates that no one is in charge of the production line.

Or Keystone just doesn’t care!!!

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Old 08-30-2016, 03:30 PM   #45
mlh
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Lynwood you are not making senses.

The way you put it the part just materialized and your company copies it???
Phil I rarely if ever make sense. Every thing we make I design either on my CNC lathe which has Cad Cam built in or I along with our CNC mill operator we design on our computer based Cad Cam system. Then CNC programs are wrote in the order the parts different operations are to be made. When you have the program you set the machine up push the green cycle start button and get out of the way. The machine doesn't forget.
You can go to our web site to see most of the products we make, or I should say the guys in the shop make. I still help out you can't replace over 50 years experience with a few years of enthusiasm. I'm blessed with great guys that come in when they wont to go home when they wont to and I give them everything the shop makes.
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Old 08-31-2016, 12:57 AM   #46
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by mlh

Lynwood you are not making senses.
Lynwood
Sorry about the big fingers I do proof read this because I get the s n and a together with the keys next to them but sometimes I miss.

Now we have enough information to tell what you are talking about. Your print is in the CAD system this is pretty much a fool proof way to make sure there are no mistakes. However your QC was done during the creation of the CAD program and your CAD program became your print.

If an RV could be built using a CAD system there would be few mistakes as well.

So let’s compare oranges to oranges

Now even with the CAD system if you changed your personnel monthly because of poor work ethic or the state coming in and removing a large number of them because you didn’t do the proper state paperwork I am sure your cost would go up in down time for training and incorrect operation of machines.

Now it goes back to no one at Keystone is in charge of the production line or even checking now and then IE no QC except for an inspection at the end of the line after a lot of the problems found by the user have been covered up. The proof of this is the repeated insulation of products during the first part of the construction process when the trailer is upside down incorrectly because the personnel installs them as if the trailer was right side up. If anyone at Keystone cared about the end user they would have addressed this problem 7 years ago when I and the manufacturer advised them of this problem.

Machinery manufacturers that have an assembly line where the product is assembled cannot use a CAD system. Some have progressed to robotic machines for portions of the production line but until these machines progress further the robotic system will not be use widely. These company’s still QC by QC inspecting 1 out of 10 items in process at a state before the assembly proceeds to the point a complete inspection could not be performed.

Keystone needs to learn about this process.

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Old 08-31-2016, 02:41 AM   #47
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Well said Phil,
If Keystone had a Quality Program the mis-labelling of the dump valves would also have been fixed years ago. There is no obvious feedback from the failures to the manufacturing process. If they do have any Quality inspectors they would benefit by turning them into trainers on how to glue pvc pipe. You cannot inspect in quality it must come from a trained dedicated work force such as Lynwoods!
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Old 08-31-2016, 04:07 AM   #48
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Like I said a list of the procedures to be accomplished at every step or most every step of the assembly and a QC check off that it was properly accomplished'

Again if at the rally on the factory tour ask the guide how they do that. Now we DO SEE red tags along the assembly line that indicate a problem
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Old 08-31-2016, 04:29 AM   #49
jameswbarton
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Rich,
The very best inspection catches only 80% of the non standard work. Quality is where each employee knows his job and performs it to expectations with any Quality aspect included. What you are describing is a Quality Program 30 years old that tries to inspect in the Quality. It does not work and results in a huge amount of rework and extra mfr. cost. A Quality Program integrates Customers-Sales-Customer Service- Service- manufacturing- suppliers- and management and delivers a Quality Product that meet the customers expectations at the lowest manufacturing cost. Quality must start with High Level Management and filter down to all levels.
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Old 08-31-2016, 03:00 PM   #50
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I've found that starting quality at the lowest level and working up brought faster results. At least in the field I was working in.

Of course Keystone is saddled with some low quality component parts that need some attention. Their camper is still only as good as the parts even if they did a good job of assembly.
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Old 09-01-2016, 02:01 AM   #51
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

18/22 units out the door with little or no quality control is the problem. The RV industry has been this way as long as we have owned Rv's which is 25 years plus.

Un skilled labor with good quality control can build a good unit and these workers are not exactly unskilled.

If you are on the factory tour this fall rally ask your guide when you are at one of the assembly stations how do you know all the tasks performed at this station are complete with no quality issues... Remember the answer.
The guide that you pose this question to will most likely be a member of the sales staff and will certainly not be an assembler of that particular assembly station, so you can forget the answer, if you even get one !
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Old 09-01-2016, 02:42 AM   #52
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Remember, this post started about the problems getting good help in their area. Now if we want to start with getting their parts from the lowest bidder, that's a whole nother thread.
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Old 09-01-2016, 11:21 AM   #53
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If any one of the RV manfacturers in Elkhart wanted the very best workforce they could get it by hiring the best at top wages. The smaller the head count the easier it becomes. But like all things there are trade offs, each corporate goal such as production #'s and profit margins have consequences. Wonder how they built the oil infrastructure in North Dakota, hiring only locals, don't think so. Keystone or anyone else could buy their way out of the lack of qualifies workers but may have to sacrifice other corporate goals to get there. I wonder how many of us have ever worked a production line? I know that during my work career that I had some great days, some average days, and some not so good days. My hat goes off to all those who work a line day in and day out attempting to do their very best every day, every minute. Think it fairly easy to poke hole, throw watermelon etc at keystone but few if any of us have run a business the size of keystone with how many employees, how many lines etc etc. autos and rv are two different animals, like comparing cars to the space shuttle. Look around at any price point the quality will be roughly comparable between manfacturers. Keystone is still around and selling many units year after year, where did carriage, lifestyle, excel etc go? The market would not support better quality at the price point that allows a company to make a profit. Welcome to America. I have had fairly good luck with the 7 RVs I have owned and if I got a lemon I would be ******, but do the best I could given the cards dealt. If I wanted to get clos r to perfection I could choose to spend 2X, 3X, or 10X the price to get it. I no longer own a keystone product but it is not because of their quality.
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