Black Tank.....My turn.. - Page 2 - Montana Owners Club

ols1932 · 02-11-2008, 09:31 AM

Rich,
This sounds exactly like what I had last Spring when our black water tank sprung a leak. I merely made an appointment with an RV repair shop in Fresno, CA where we were passing through, to have it fixed under our extended warranty. The technician who did the work was as smelly and dirty as you probably were when he got through, but he never whimpered or said a word, just did his job. Ours was split right at the top on the opposite side from the inlet. The split was about 18" long. Cost the extended warranty company around $900.00 after my deductible.

If I were you, I'd just try to get an appointment. They should find the place where it leaks, not you. I'm sure they've all had to work on as messy a problem.

I tried to research my posting on this but it was done in January 2007 and it appears that the archives only go back one year.

Here's what I posted in a follow-up to my first post:

Shades of what happened to our 2000 Montana back in January. The black water tank split at the edge on top of the tank, causing spillage when the rig was moved with contents inside of it. It didn't need to be full in order to notice the leak. First, the leak appeared to be clear water but the repair shop said that was because the water on top inside the tank was somewhat clear. However, the underbelly membrane had to be removed and scrubbed down and disinfected and then allowed to lay in the sun for a couple days to dry out. My wife and I had noticed we were waking up with headaches every morning and just didn't feel well. Turns out it was the methane gas from the septic tank that was making us sick, along with the continuing odor (though I couldn't smell it, she said she did). Mine was fixed under my extended warranty. Total bill was $954.00. Had them replace/repair all three valves (galley, grey, and black tanks) at the same time. No sense having to go in there again.

My advice, get it fixed as soon as you can. Don't spend any more time in the rig than you absolutely have to.

Orv

TLightning · 02-11-2008, 11:34 AM

Rich, if I were you, I would give very serious thought, when you get back to Ohio and the Montana is 'fixed,' to put that thing on the market and unload it! From your history with that rig, it seems to me you have had nothing but one problem after another...some quite serious.

richfaa · 02-11-2008, 12:15 PM

Well Tom... I don't think my problems were out of the ordinary Every one of them has been reported on this forum and I will bet that some have had just as many problems with the camper if they are using it as we do.. What I do is freely admit that we are having the problems.

I will call the service center in the AM and ask some questions such as exactly how is the vent pipe connected to the black tank.I am not convinced, Yet, that we have a cracked tank.It is full now and we see no leaks nad it does not smell. However we are giving serious thought about another camper..We would like the Big Sky or Equivalent.

We do have the extended warranty and will not hesitate to use it.If this tank is defective after 20 months Keystone need to hear about it.

snfexpress · 02-11-2008, 12:19 PM

Sorry to hear of your problems, Rich.

FYI, Travel Star Products makes these tanks specifically for Keystone, and each one is serial numbered and recorded in a database. Cost is about $65 and shipping is twice that.

They also make other tanks for other manufacturers of RV's.

tom41 · 02-11-2008, 12:49 PM

Rich, if you can see where the vent pipe goes in the tank, see if you can tell if its even in the tank and if so if its glued in, before I got my monty I had a Allegro DP and we kept having a smell, never ran over for I always emptied regular, but the vent pipe liked about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch even connecting to the black tank. just a thought.
Tom

rickety · 02-11-2008, 01:30 PM

Rich, I went through this with a friend and his 3280 fifth wheel. He had the flush going and forgot about it. Overflowed into the belly and ruined the insulation, etc. The crack was a longitudinal crack at the center rib on top of the tank. It's a pure bear to get the tank out and inspect it, you have to cut the inlet, the vent, and pull the handle compleelty out along with disassembling the valves on the grey and black tank.

Sorry to hear aobut the problem, but it is fixable...with the extended warrranty thank God!!!!!

Rick

richfaa · 02-11-2008, 01:51 PM

Thanks guys..Good information Michael.. And sure Steve Emmel..You forget I know you.. If you were nearby you would be right beside me.. Jim(Boylanag) a couple of rows down from me was on the phone as soon as he saw the post on the forum. MOC'ers are like that..

scductman · 02-11-2008, 02:50 PM

Rich I have had the belly out of mine it is an 06 and the drains and vents are glued in. There is a flange sealed to the top of the tank I dont think keystone uses a rubber Jt. My sob did. But when you fill and drain these tanks the top flexs alot. after time I think they will crack JMHO. I wish you good luck. bobby

carlson · 02-11-2008, 03:36 PM

Rich,
Been there!!
Done it!!
And had to throw the cloths away!!
The vent is located behind the 3" toilet pipe in the basement.
You can pull the staples out of the white cover rings and look at the area where the pipes are inot the glued fittings in the top of the tank.
The point of the water coming out of the vent pipe.
It takes 1 lb of pressure to push water 2 feet up a pipe.
So therefor to get the water out of the top you would have to add 5 psi of pressure to the tank.
The tank is supported by the top lip and when the tank fills it start to bulge out.
The important number to Keystone is the number hand written in yellow on the side of the tank.
IF you look at the gray tank you will see the number for that tank, but that is not the number you want.
Good luck.

richfaa · 02-12-2008, 03:05 AM

We have both underbelly panels and insulation on the ground.Still no sign or a leak or crack. found some other things...Both tank valve handles are about to come unscrewed, We have those wire shelf things over them and they can not spin...Been that way since day one is my guess. Also all the sensor connections are loose... You would think they could have put on lock washers....Not...I will. Can't do much else today as foul weather is on the way this afternoon and tomorrow. Will make phone calls to Keystone and the tank manufacturer...Thanks Mike, they are on county Rd 27 which is very near the factory. I want to learn how the tanks are supposed to be installed then how keystone installs them???

Thanks for all the advise and expertise guys..it really helps.

richfaa · 02-12-2008, 03:34 AM

Ok..Talked to Craig at Team Montana... The vent pipe,, is a solid plastic wield to the top of the tank. Spoke to Travel Star Products the vendor for the tank and they provide the tank complete with the sensors installed internally. Keystone does the plumbing and the wiring. We know that is true as we have seen the tanks stacked on the line at the factory. We also asked the vendor how they recommend the vent pipe be installed.. A flexable rubber boot or a fixed seal as they are done both ways.. The person I was speaking to did not know the answer but she said her boss did and he would return my call..I need to know that....

SlickWillie · 02-12-2008, 07:30 AM

Interesting info Rich. Sounds like my dealer's man was full of it!

Somehow, I'm not surprised. Good luck.

The Oldguard · 02-12-2008, 02:18 PM

Maybe it’s just me? But next to where you hook up the hose to flush out the black tank on my 3400RL there is a decal that say’s

Caution
Sewer Flusher
Sewer Valve Must
Be Open When
Using This Inlet

It seems to me if you do not open this valve when flushing out the black tank, and if for some reason the vent pipe should get blocked with toilet paper, or some other large object that you would then start pressurizing the tank which then could rupture the tank, if it had any type of flaw or if the vent pipe is only slipped into a rubber boot of some kind and is not glued it would then allow all the good stuff in the tank to then run into the underbelly, and then on to the ground.

This is just my own humble opinion, but if you close the valve and run water into the tank, it’s like playing “Stinky Russian Roulette” don’t you think?

scductman · 02-12-2008, 02:47 PM

Rich when I hooked mine back up I put a short pc of pipe and then a fernco rubber fitting on all pipes. With the flgs solid there is no give. now the top of the tank can flex also put them on the 3" drains blk & grey. I also made a brace under each tank to take the load off the flgs when full and put a pc of armorflex on top of the brace to protect the tank. I Hope it all works out good for you.bobby

simonsrf · 02-12-2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by The Oldguard

Maybe it’s just me? But next to where you hook up the hose to flush out the black tank on my 3400RL there is a decal that say’s

Caution
Sewer Flusher
Sewer Valve Must
Be Open When
Using This Inlet

It seems to me if you do not open this valve when flushing out the black tank, and if for some reason the vent pipe should get blocked with toilet paper, or some other large object that you would then start pressurizing the tank which then could rupture the tank, if it had any type of flaw or if the vent pipe is only slipped into a rubber boot of some kind and is not glued it would then allow all the good stuff in the tank to then run into the underbelly, and then on to the ground.

This is just my own humble opinion, but if you close the valve and run water into the tank, it’s like playing “Stinky Russian Roulette” don’t you think?

Rich,

Mine is a 2980RL and has the very same label. Maybe your gripe is with the guy who didn't put the label on the panel and not the manufacturer of the black tank system!

richfaa · 02-13-2008, 01:50 AM

I do not have that label but that was not the cause of the overflow..I fill the tank with the valve closed to get a really good flush.. You would be amazed at what comes out after you think it is well flushed and close the valve then fill the tank and let the down pressure flush out more stuff. I miss judged the level of the tank, was not paying attention, it was entirely my fault.

richfaa · 02-13-2008, 04:01 AM

More on working in the underbelly. You can see the sensors on both the grey and black tanks on the 3400. There are 3 external connections on each tank... The sensors were not working.. They are connected by the round eye crimp on connectors..they were all loose and had no lock washers. Home depot package of 18 lock washers 10 cents.. put the lock washers in and all sensors work..cost 6 lock washers at .55 each total cost 3.3 cents. The galley tank sensors are also inop but they are not visable but I will drop the underbelly in that arear and repair. There are many reasons for not working sensors but after this fix IMO the primary cause is the lack of a .55 cent Retail lock washer .

Update.....we got the leak..door side very top right were the tank rounds at the lip of the tank were it lays on the support. It is possible that it was defective from day one as we have never had the
tank that full. Had to fill it to the very top , Acording to my now working sensor lights, before it sprung the leak. Now to do a temp fix ..trip to C.W is in order.. As long as we never fill the tank to 'Full' it will not leak... My plan is to deal with my extended warranty and have the tank replaced when we are at the fall rally as the vendor is on County road 27, Goshen, almost at the service center.We have the extended warranty with a 50.00 deductable.

snfexpress · 02-13-2008, 01:36 PM

Rich - my gray tank had a pinhole leak in the same place. Me thinks a hole is made by continual flexing on the removable support (and that the plastic is not thick enough).

richfaa · 02-14-2008, 01:00 AM

My thoughts exactly Mike. we are having a "discussion" with travel star (thanks for the info) who are the vendors for the tanks. What I have been learning as of late is that the way the vendor recommendes their product be installed and the way Keystone installs it are two completly diffferent things.( learned that from the day nite shades).I haved asked Travel Star two questions...How do you recommend vent pipe be installed, Fixed or a flexable boot and how do you recommend the tanks be installed in terms of support.Thus far no one there seems to want to answer the question..We are working our way to the top of the command chain.As I recall from the many factory tours the tanks float in the angle iron support and there is no support of any kind. I can't see any from the bottom. Continual flex can be a big problem.

SlickWillie · 02-14-2008, 01:02 AM

Rich, is the underbelly one piece on your unit? Just curiosity on my part. I know ours is one piece, and is a b!tch to get down. I had to cut it all the way across the back and roll back (dealer had already cut it halfway across). Ours actually had a large "T" cut in it from the factory. I was told by Keystone this is standard procedure if they detect a leak before it leaves the factory.

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