just a thought on quality

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Steve,

Excellent and very appropriate comments. For some reason there are those who think, to get higher quality in the RV Industry we need to pay more for our RV's. As you have pointed out the reverse is true. We buyers are paying for the low manufacturing quality which causes a high in and out of warranty cost. That cost is built into the price or the manufacturers would not survive. But the whole RV food chain depends on this poor quality for income. Extended warranty companies, service departments, parts suppliers, etc, etc. If I had understood this situation better earlier we would have bought an extended warranty policy during the factory one year warranty. This is one industry where these kinda of policies probably make sense. If they cover what is needed.

[richfaa]

Steve.Having been involved in "quality Control " I also agree 100% wih all you and Dean relate.Those who understand the concept understand the benefits of quality to the company. Those who do not never will. Do understand that this is is a industry wide issue. Keystone is no better, no worse than any of the others.A tour of any plant would verify that. The purchase of another brand will not solve the individuals problems. Dean I do not believe that low quality is a deliberate business practice in the RV industry rather one of necessity and competitiveness The average RV is built and designed for the average user which by RVIA definition is occasional use. There is a tread over on RV net asking..how many days do you use you RV. The replies are enlightening. This is our 5th RV the others were used occasionally We had the last one 10 years with not a singe problem We have already traveled and lived in this one more in 33 months that all of the others combined. It also follows that even with the high cost of warranty issues it is still cost effective to the companies and justification NOT to improve quality.

It is my opinion that sooner or later, perhaps sooner, a Chinese company will buy up a RV company, apply their business and manufacturing standards which will spell the end of the North American RV industry.

[Delaine and Lindy]

Don't know how Q/C works in the RV industry. I do know it isn't working very well for many people. How do I know this? We have lived in a 5th wheel all but about 11 months since Jan 2005. And the 5th wheels we have owned were from the low end to the high end in cost. The high ends have been better. We have set down longer on this trip than any trip since 2005. And we have travel in many States mostly out West, and driven over all types of roads. What we haven't done is boondocking, which we want do. How many miles have we traveled, well I quit keeping up at 50,000. We haven't stayed in extreme cold weather, we did live thru one winter in the Cambridge and it did Snow on one occassion. The Cambridge did well in the Cold weather.

I read RV.Net, which I call the Big Board everyday. I'm trully amazed at the problems people have. And most aren't full timing, they are the week-enders and a few short to long trips. I have seen list of problems that would fill a whole page and then some. How can this be, I don't have a clue. I have found if you let things go they become unmanageable by the average person.

The RV industry as a whole is in serious trouble, will it survive that remains to be seen. I also believe that some RV manufactors just get to big and start building to many different types or RV's. We will be in Goshen in June and will visit Keystone and other manufactors as we have before. I also think the RV industry has to be able to survive about 3 to 4 years before things will get better. Will the big and small survive, if anyone knows let me know.

As for the Chinese, now I'm confused, why would they want to build RV's, it want happen. Now their money that we are giving them they could for sure buy the North American industry (think stimulus). Then just think what a mess we would have then. The Chinese aren't building any cars or trucks that are exported to the USA. I can't see were I will ever buy a Chinese made RV. I'm still trying to buy my Trucks made in America (thanks Flint, MI). If we as buyers and owners of RV's keep letting the industry off the hook when we buy our RV's the Q/C will never get better. GBY...

[richfaa]

The Chinese will know a good business opportunity when they see it. Who would have thought that Honda or Toyota could build cars in North America and do better than the big three. My Chevy truck was built in Canada..Canada is a foreign country (although it is in North America as is Mexico) My Ford has Made in Mexico parts all over it(oopps North america again) ...let me know where to pick up the check.

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Rich,

I agree with most of your points but I have to point out one obvious contradiction in your statements:

1.)"I do not believe that low quality is a deliberate business practice in the RV industry rather one of necessity and competitiveness"

2.)"It also follows that even with the high cost of warranty issues it is still cost effective to the companies and justification NOT to improve quality"

I would like to suggest the following differing opinions. I have learned with over 40 years of manufacturing experience that higher quality products are less expensive to produce. If one considers all the costs of a product. There is an indirect cost to manufacturers who produce less than quality products and that is "a bad user experience" who either won't buy that RV brand again or won't ever buy an RV again.

But there is one current fact that is accepted and has become the culture in the RV industry. "Quality in the RV industry is less than it should be but "ALL" are that way so just accept it. Therefore all the manufacturers are getting a free lunch relative to in and out of warranty costs. Automobile manufacturers provide warranties of 100,000 miles or 5 years whichever comes first, as an example. So they cover the buyer whether he is a casual user or a heavy user. Typically, the RV industry only offers a 1 year warranty. If the RV industry is aiming their production and OEM component selection process for the casual user during that one year period, then they are deliberately buying lesser grade material and components than if they were having to cover a 5 year or 100,000 mile period. So IMHO, RV manufacturers are deliberately building lower quality RV's. Why? Because they don't have to pay as many of the repair costs for heavy users after one year. And very few for casual users in the first year. Years ago it was well known that TV Tubes were designed for an average lifetime of 7 years so that current users would buy a new TV set periodically. Now technology advances in electronics tend to be the driving force for replacement rather than product failures. Infant mortality is the highest failure rate in electronics. If it doesn't fail in the first few days, it probably will last until it becomes technically obsolete.

Therefore as long as we RV buyers accept poor quality and one year warranties, the RV manufacturers probably won't improve much. Unless.... one manufacturer takes the lead in changing the completive environment. By offering a higher quality product with a longer warranty at a competitive price. That is what the Japanese car manufacturers did to the American automotive industry. It could happen in the RV industry. And I would much prefer it be a Japanese company than a Chinese company. Most Japanese companies know how to produce a quality product at a reasonable cost. IMHO, Chinese companies are able to produce lower cost products while suffering in the quality area. That too may change.

[Delaine and Lindy]

Well I'm not so sure the Chinese know a good thing or not they are still loaning the US money and the USA is broke or closd to it. What would happen if they call the debt in.

For sure the Japanese would be a much better in Q/C building RV's for sure than the Chinese. Again we who are buying these RV's and are taking them with very little Q/C, so who is to blame. GBY....

[exav8tr]

Sounds like we need to get a letter to ALL Keystone owners asking them to write Keystone and say they WILL NOT buy another Keystone product until they offer a longer warranty. Of course, those of us not in the market for a new unit may see a change further down the line. And, also, of course, that will not happen. My sister and bil have a 10 year old SOB 5th wheel that they fulltimed in for almost 5 years and still longtime (6 months a year) in it. They are meeting us in VA this year after a month trip from CA. Then up the eastern coast to NE for fall colors and then back to CA. He has not had any major problems with his. He did have a blow out that took out his propane lines and the side of his coach, but that could happen to anyone, I guess. He still has original fridge, WH, Furnace and AC. Not bad for 10 years....He does keep up with PM.

[RVWheels]

Thank you all for your "thoughts" on this issue. But let us stop beating this "dead horse" for awhile.

The topic is being closed.

Thank you,

RVWheels, MOC Admin.