Montana Tow Vehicles - Montana Owners Club

Cat320 · 05-03-2006, 10:40 AM

While visiting our friendly Montana dealer on Sat, looking at the 2980RL, the subject of TVs came up. She said "99% tow with 3/4 ton diesels." This unit has an empty PW of 2315 and a GVWR of 12500. It appears most of you are towing with 1 ton diesels. I am going to have to get a new TV, and am deliberating between the 3/4 diesel and a dually diesel. Since we will not be full timers, we would prefer the 3/4, however, based on the PW, I don't see how a 3/4 can be the TV and stay within the GVWR. No doubt it will pull fine, but the PW appears to be too much. My research has included 1 ton srw...since they are heavier and you cannot get a sb (Chevy), you only pickup about 350# in additional cargo weight...so they've been ruled out. I've talked to an atty and the ins co...bottom line is that we could open ourselves up to serious liability issues if driving an over weight vehicle and are involved in at fault accident.

Has anybody actually weighed their rigs and found out what the true PW is, as compared to the advertised empty weight?

The extra shocks don't change the GVWR...and I've heard all the "we've always pulled with a 3/4 ton, never had any problems," I can stand. So what does everybody else do, is there a realistic solution? As one guy said, "GVWR is like being pregnant, you are within weight or you're not within weight."

No, I'm not the weight police, just a guy trying to get the correct vehicle to do the job I need for it to do. Thanks.

Leaseit · 05-03-2006, 11:33 AM

Cat...... as a future Montana owner i to was confused about which TV was right and where could i find the information.

This is the web site giving spec's on Chevy trucks

http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado/specifications/

I also found a nice glossy truck sales book at a chevy dealer and read it down to the last detail. On page 39 i found what i needed, it says under 2500HD and 3500HD Fifth-Wheel Trailering....

"Trailer Kingpin weight should be 15 to 20 percent of the Total loaded trailer weight (up to 1500 lbs on 1500 models, up to 2500lbs on 1500HD, up to 3000 on 2500HD, and up to 3500 on 3500HD Models"

I guess if they say it in print, somebody's going to have to stand behind it.

After a sales rep. saw me out measuring truck bed's on the lot( cause i was confused also) it was cleared up for me. GM Trucks can have whats called Short, Standard and Long bed's until you say "Crew Cab" then the Short bed isn't offered by GM on them.
And thanks to some Wonderful Folks who already own Montanta's inviting me to the Southern Mini-Rally, i got the answer. Short Bed on Crew Cabs are really GM's Standard bed since there is no such thing as Short Bed available in the GM Crew Cab product.
Now that the dummy (ME) got that straight, only a few hundered more questons before i order. The Factory Tour is next. (Laughing)
And a deep thanks to those couples putting up with me asking the Zillon questons at the Mini-Rally, for they know not how much help they provided. Thank You

joe2speed · 05-03-2006, 12:09 PM

Weighed my rig (see sig) when we got it, so we would know for sure. Stopped to fuel at a truck stop that had a Cat scale. Filled the fuel tank. I had about a 1/3 tank of fresh water, two 30 lb. propane tanks full. The front of the bed in TV loaded with fire wood. The wife and I, and the dog. Weighed out an 19,740. Well within the limits. Made me feel better knowing for sure.

Cat320 · 05-03-2006, 12:18 PM

Thanks for the info.

I currently have a Chevy 1500 and am intimately familiar with them, and have done lots of research on the diesels. The advertised PWs do not work realistically with the 2500. The only 2500 that has enough cargo capacity to handle 3000 PW is the one with the 6.0 V8. Then, if you load it up to 9200, you only have enough CGVW to tow an 9800 trailer (CGWR is 16000 with the 6.0). Therefore, 16000 - 9200 = 6800, and you can bring the weight of the trailer to 9800 because 3000 of the trailer's weight is in the bed of the truck.

I hate to confuse you more, but short beds are offered on the crew cab, look on page 36 paragraph D of your brochure.

I've been to three dealers in three cities in two states, sent Chev three emails and called the 800# twice...nobody knows much of anything. Now they've quit answering my emails. I think my knowledge now surpasses the dealer's salesmen. I'm about to give up and just get the dually!

Be glad to discuss this further, send me a PM if you like.

indy roadrunner · 05-03-2006, 01:30 PM

Right - Wrong - Indiffernet here are my weights. I have the GMC 2500HD with Diesel, Allison Tranny, and the 5th wheel tow package. Empy weight 4180 on front axles and 2840 on the rear axle of pick-up. (Without wife and dog) Hooked up my 3400RT and took to Flying J and I had 4340 on fron axle 5260 on rear axle and trailer weight of 10140. (With wife and dog)
Now I have the extended cab with long box so the GVWR is 9200 according to sticker in door, the curb weight is 5848 with payload of 3352. Now if my figures is right the pin weight would be 2420 vs payload of 3352 (within limits) and the trailer axle weight is 10140 also within limits. Therefore I conclude that my 3/4 ton is sufficient for the duty. I work for a trucking company and the Indiana DOT is just down the road. They are always bringing their new officers down to our lot to run them through truck roadside inspection education therefore I have somewhat of a working relationship with them. I showed them my weights and the officer said for Indiana standards they were within limits - only question being does my trailer braking system measure up to the weights - in other words - what is my stopping capability?
Then concern being the loaded weight on the rear axle vs the towing weight of the whole unit in being able to stop. I don't think you are going to put too much weight on the axle of the trailer as they are what 6000 + per axle. 12000 lbs. Remember a lot of the stuff you put in the forward basement storage winds up as pin weight vs axle weight on the trailer. Now I don't claim to be a specialist but everybody of have showed my weights to have said "not to worry - you are fine". The other thing is - how may 3/4 ton p/u do you see pulling 5th wheels. There is just a bunch of them out there. Do you think that many people could be wrong? Go to the pictures of Montana Owners rigs at the home page a look at the TV's being used.

Cat320 · 05-03-2006, 03:43 PM

indy roadrunner...appreciate comments, but I must be missing something. You said your empty weight is 4180+2840=7020. Then you went and weighed the rig with 5er, and it showed 4340+5260=9600 That means your PW (including wife and dog) is 2580 (9600-7020), 400 over GVWR. If your numbers are correct, I'd sure like to see how you figured them...I'd prefer a 3/4, but can't see where the numbers are coming from. Where did you get 5848? One thing to remember about GM and their curb weights, normally they are computed with the base V8, and do not allow for the 700 lb Duramax/Allison option. The 2500 D/A weight is usually around 7000, give or take.

Look on the pillar opposite where you found the GVWR data plate, (on the rear door) and there's a sticker entitled "Tire and Loading Information." There should be a statement there saying "The combined weight of cargo and occupants should never exceed___pounds." Subtract that number from your GVWR of 9200, and it will give you the truck's empty weight.

As I stated my OP, there are lots of 3/4s out there...and, if you run the numbers, it seems most are over GVWR. That's what I'm trying to avoid.

Fordzilla · 05-03-2006, 10:03 PM

For me it was the fact that I was overloaded a little bit with a SRW F350. That and the new truck really is only going to get used to pull the trailer 80% of it's life. With that said I was like get the Dually. If you are buying a tow vehicle just to pull the trailer get one plenty big enough to do the job and stop the unit safely. If you have to use it as a daily driver as well then I would have stayed with a SRW 1-ton.

stiles watson · 05-03-2006, 11:41 PM

The assumption that most of us are pulling with a 1-ton or a dually 1-ton may not be correct. There are a bunch of us who have 3/4-ton TV's that are doing nicely. Not going to get into another truck fight, 3/4-ton versus 1-ton. That war has been fought to a draw right here on the forum. You have to do what you feel comfortable and safe in doing. What ever you do, do it and don't look back. Have loads of fun.

indy roadrunner · 05-04-2006, 03:35 AM

Stiles I'm with you on this. Some will argue that you shouldn't be pulling anything over 34 ft with anything less than a MDT. So I guess it is for ones' own justification, budget, roll of the dice and what ever the wife says that we make our decisions.
I'm happy with my setup so that is all that matters.

cs413 · 05-04-2006, 07:24 AM

I am very safety conscious and would not pull this much weight with anything less. We could argue all day long, but in the end you have to do what is comfortable for you.

richfaa · 05-04-2006, 07:56 AM

I would rather not take the chance and be legal in all respects If I had the choice to do so.If I had no Truck and did not have to defend spending the Dollars on what I had. I would stay legal.We have long discussions on getting F or G rated tires just to be on the safe side although E rated tires are just within specs but have no problem with knowingly overloading our Tv's..It is the individuals personal choice and you will never have a problem..untill you have a problem.

Montana Sky · 05-04-2006, 01:20 PM

I am happy with the job that my truck does for me. To each is their own and at the end of the day you the owner are the one who has to be happy.

rickfox · 05-04-2006, 04:40 PM

Cat320,

No matter how you run the numbers, the 3/4 ton TV's typically have the GCWR to tow Montana's largest 5vr's, but they don't have the GVWR to tow those with the heavier PW's. And interestingly, the shorter length trailers like the one you mentioned have the heavier PW's.

At 1976# PW, my 2500HD is within ALL specs for towing my "empty" 3400RL. However, it is not within the GVWR if required to tow the smaller unit you mentioned. My think tank people tell me that if "brochure weights" show the TV is not overloaded, you're in fairly good shape if you have to prove your case. Cat scale weights showing things are in spec are even better, but best take these measurements without much cargo.

Like Rich said, if you want to be safe when it comes to specs, the 1 ton is the way to go. However, my gut tells me that most of us are towing with 3/4 tons.

Wrenchtraveller · 05-04-2006, 05:08 PM

Liars have changed the way many of us look at TVs and while I overloaded pickups most of my adult life it sure feels good to be legal on my GVWR and my GCWR and thank you Ford for giving me a SRW 1 ton with a 11200 pound GVWR .

Fordzilla · 05-05-2006, 01:36 PM

I was looking at CAT320 has a half ton p-up and was looking more for an idea of which one to buy. If I knew I was going to be overloaded I would purchase a little bigger truck to not be overloaded. For the minimal price difference I would at least go with a SRW 1 ton. Get what fits your needs. But you know you will have to buy something because you won't pull it far with a Chevy 1500.

firetrucker · 05-05-2006, 09:08 PM

But then, you could do what I did, which was drive my wife crazy (not the first time) by finding that, for me, there was very little margin of safety whether I was looking at a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton. When I told her, after weeks of whining, that I'd just get a used fire truck, that was the last straw. She found someone on the Net that was selling used HDTs (class 8, heavy duty trucks). It may be a bit big and not capable of doing the off-road travel that Steve and Vicki have been doing, but it's supremely comfortable (and very quiet), gets as good a fuel mileage as almost any TV when towing, goes up and down hills like they're not there, can pull any size rig (although small ones look funny), can carry anything that comes to mind (including, at some point, a motorcycle), and is the center of attention where ever we go.

I'm not saying everyone should have one, but if you need to benchmark what works, something to compare TVs against, it's the place to start.

Bob

Fordzilla · 05-05-2006, 10:05 PM

Bob, your truck has been a topic of conversation and we have never even met. I told the wife and other camping friends that my next truck will be a VOLVO. They all laugh and my wife says she will quit camping with me if I get one. But if we still love to camp when we get old enough to full time we will definitely look into something like that.

Cat320 · 05-06-2006, 01:05 PM

Been out of town. Appreciate all the comments. We've had a dually, had a 3/4 ton, had a bunch of 1/2 tons. Since we are going to get a new TV, even tho it will be a part time tower, I'm leaning toward the dually. Be kind of a pain around town when not towing, but will be legal, be within GVWR limits, and can load any damn thing we want in the truck and/or trailer and not worry about weight limits!

richfaa · 05-06-2006, 03:58 PM

Cat320..You are doing the right thing..Given the choice it should be on the side of legal and safety. We have the 05 F-350 Ford, CC, LB, Dually, 4:30 diff V-10 not even a Diesel. It has a tow rating of 16,100 and a GCWR of 23,500 It also has the 12,600lb GVWR package. The diesel will add 3K to that GCWR. The 3400 is 13,975 max weight and I don't care what the pin weight gets to be. It is big, clumsy, Rides empty like ..well ..a big truck.Is hard to park people mutter under their breath when I take up two parking spots at the supermarket. Most of us had to make a trade off because the TV is also the everyday drive and the dually is not well suited for that. We got the big truck because we wanted the big camper and it is not our everyday drive. If the TV was the everyday drive we would no doubt have the 3/4 ton TV and the camper that it would tow safely and legally..each of us makes the decision..

cs413 · 05-06-2006, 05:24 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Cat320..You are doing the right thing..Given the choice it should be on the side of legal and safety. We have the 05 F-350 Ford, CC, LB, Dually, 4:30 diff V-10 not even a Diesel. It has a tow rating of 16,100 and a GCWR of 23,500 It also has the 12,600lb GVWR package. The diesel will add 3K to that GCWR. The 3400 is 13,975 max weight and I don't care what the pin weight gets to be. It is big, clumsy, Rides empty like ..well ..a big truck.Is hard to park people mutter under their breath when I take up two parking spots at the supermarket. Most of us had to make a trade off because the TV is also the everyday drive and the dually is not well suited for that. We got the big truck because we wanted the big camper and it is not our everyday drive. If the TV was the everyday drive we would no doubt have the 3/4 ton TV and the camper that it would tow safely and legally..each of us makes the decision..

Beautiful Truck, Beautiful 5er.

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