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Old 02-15-2007, 12:23 AM   #21
David and Jo-Anna
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OK, now I'm REALLY getting confused. If as Rich says it can be difficult to tell the difference between "bounce" or "chucking", seems like that makes it harder to decide whether to go with an air pin designed to do better with bounce than the air pin designed to do better with chucking. Beginning to think that while all of the air pins seem to provide significant benefits, it can be difficult to reach a definitive conclusion that one is "better" than others. Maybe relative cost and/or convenience of installation should be given bigger consideration.

Dave, with regard to your comment that the Mor/Ryde pin box can be ordered from Montana with a new rig, do you know what the MSRP and/or dealer cost is for this option as I don't see it on my retail price sheet?
 
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Old 02-15-2007, 01:43 AM   #22
Mrs. CountryGuy
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Well, shoot,

I thought bounce went UP and DOWN

chucking is FORWARD and BACK.

We have no trouble tellin them apart.

chucking tends to hurt the back, and other parts of your ole body.

bounce tends to hurt your rig more.

that is our experience.

No air pin or air bag, NO RIG behind our truck.
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Old 02-15-2007, 02:15 AM   #23
DL N K
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I just ordered a 5th Airborne for our 3500RL, which has the 1116 box.
After many conversations with Lippert and 5th Airborne, I decided to replace with the 5th Airborne 5AB-E510/E710, which is a direct replacement for the Lippert 1716. According to Lippert, the 1116 and 1716 are designed to be interchangeable. The only difference is the 1116 is good for 19,000 lbs and the 1716 is good for 15,000 lbs.
The E510/E710 is just under 4 inches longer than the 1116, so that will help with my SB TV. Lippert said that about 6 inches would be the max to extend from the 1116 without possibly creating problems.
According to Sonny at 5th, the 5th Airborne should sit only about 1 inch lower than the 1116, which should eliminate major hitch adjustment.
I just ordered the 5th Airborne yesterday from PPL Motorhomes for $689.00 plus shipping. Shipping to a commercial address for me was $65.00, but I had to oder from their website to get that shipping rate.
I did consider the Trailair, but like others, I like the look of the 5th better, and based on my research, I think the 5th Airborne will address the issues I feel are important. The 5th is also weighs quite a bit less than the Trailair.

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Old 02-15-2007, 04:12 AM   #24
richfaa
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Carol's definition is short and very correct. My comment, based on experience, is that a lot of folks get the terms mixed up and spend $ before they do any homework on the subject.Again what cleared it up for me was the statement...Mor Ryde addresses 90% of the Chucking and 10 % of the bounce.. Trail-Air/5th Airborne addresses 90% of the bounce and 10% of the chucking. If you look at both of them side by side, like at a C.G it will be easy to note the difference. Brad's explanation is also very educational..Once there is a understanding of what each model does we can then determine what (chucking or bounce) is most important to us and make the proper decision. It is our opinion that the Mor Ryde suspension on the newer Montana's aid in reducing the bounce somewhat. If I had to do it over again I would try the new Montana with the Mor Ryde suspension.. that is a new factor that has not been fully examined...See how it rides..then re examine the choices.
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Old 02-15-2007, 04:45 AM   #25
Mrs. CountryGuy
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Rich,

Not sure where your numbers come from, knowing how you research stuff, someplace that is supposed to be factual, I am sure.

We do feel that our Isolator took out more than 10% of the chuck, we feel it eliminated like 75 to 85 % of it.

That's our story and we are sticking to it!

Now, what is more important to you, chuck or bounce, Rich is right, that consideration should go into your decision.
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Old 02-15-2007, 04:52 AM   #26
OntMont
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Other than what the manufacturers tell us, it is almost impossible for any individual to offer a fair comparison of the different offerings. We usually only get to experience whatever model we chose.

None of them do everything, and what works well for one combination of truck, trailer, and road; may not work as well for other combinations. It also depends on your personal sensitivity to various motions. In researching our choice, we always heard stories of people having one brand replaced by another. We chose the Trail-air hitch and the Trail-air Equaflex suspension. They seem to work well for us, but are they the best? I honestly don't know.

Trail-air were working on developing a new version of their hitch that was intended to better combine control of both chucking and bouncing forces. Trail-air's shop is less than a mile from the Montana plant and Service Center, so we found it convenient to go there. Their people were very good to talk to, and deal with. We got to watch the entire operation being done.

(Trail-air was recently purchased by Lippert, so it remains to be seen what that will do to the factory suspension offerings).
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Old 02-15-2007, 05:47 AM   #27
richfaa
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No Carol those numbers are not exact at all. It was a dealers way of explaining what each of them did(he handled both) to a dummy like myself. Although we have the Mor-Ryde we notice no significant bounce so So I would have to say, based on experience , that it takes out much more than 10% of the bounce... I guess if the system that the individual has works for them,,then it is a good one..
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Old 02-15-2007, 06:48 AM   #28
DL N K
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Here's a quote from 5th Airborne. Of course, since it came from someone trying to sell that product, I take it with a grain of salt.

"The 5th Airborne was tested for chucking and reduces it 60%. We do both where the competitors each only do one."

I have some other e-mails from them, but I hesitate to post them as they compare their product to the Trailair, and I have not taken the time to compare the numbers they provided to Trailair's information as far as percentages of reduction of chucking, verticle movement etc. I communicated with them many, many times over about a 2 week time period prior to making my decision.
Standard disclamers no interest or stock, just passing what I have learned in the past couple of weeks.

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Old 02-15-2007, 07:42 AM   #29
rldriver
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by David and Jo-Anna


Dave, with regard to your comment that the Mor/Ryde pin box can be ordered from Montana with a new rig, do you know what the MSRP and/or dealer cost is for this option as I don't see it on my retail price sheet?
Dave, when pricing my "Big Guy" I got a price out of a California dealer of $695.00 for the Mor/Ryde pin box, I assume that was MSRP but not sure. I did order one with my unit.

Off topic, tell Jo-Anna that the storage cabinets against the wall below the sides of the table are 5 1/4" deep and 15" wide. There are 4"deep open shelves directly under the table but have no idea of what you would use them for or how you would get to them with out turning into a pretzel.
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:36 AM   #30
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David,
I heard the Mor/Ryde king pin was about a $750 dollar option. In reading Dick's post, he was told $695. Seems to be in the ball park... This is my opinion, I would order the Mor/Ryde king pin for your Big Sky. Between that and the Mor/Ryde suspension that already comes on the coach, it is all you will need. I don't know if you bought a hitch already for your truck, but if not, find one that has a 4 way pivot head. Between those 3, I think you will have it all covered.

Also send Rick Fox a PM, or maybe he will see this and respond. He has the Glide Ride pin on his Montana. It has the same concept as the Mor/Ryde pin. Get his 1st hand experience with it, might help...
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:07 AM   #31
bsmeaton
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Ah yes - I forgot the Glide Ride - a very good competitor and simple technology. They have had some weld issue recalls (haven't they all), but should be OK on a new one.

I need to add one thing on my selection, which steered me away from the Glide Ride, and possibly the Mor-Ryde had I of thought of it. We have a short bed with a slider. I either have to release my slide, or be very aware and consious of the nose against the cab when turning or backing. What I don't need is any surprise from a pin box that moves up to 3" horizontally on it's own. I was afraid if I got in a tight spot and brought it up within an inch or so, the trailer would move up on the hitch and punch my cab anyway.

Just something to consider for us shorties.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:20 AM   #32
Cat320
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Here's some more info to add to DL N K's post. From the 5th Abn brochure:

"Longitudinal shock reduction: 5th Abn 59.9%, leading anti chucking competitor 23%.
Vertical shock reduction: 5th Abn 44.1%, leading air ride competitor 22.3%."

This seems backwards to me...I'd think it would provide more vertical shock reduction than longitudinal shock reduction.
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:10 AM   #33
David and Jo-Anna
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With regard to the info Bert posted from Fifth Airborne, who do people think is the "leading competitor" from their prospective with regard to longitudinal chucking? vertical bounce?
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:21 AM   #34
bsmeaton
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I always assumed they were talking about Trailair David, as that is the only air pin box competitor - but that would be an assumption. Of course I never take the vendors opinion seriously anyway.
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Old 02-15-2007, 03:26 PM   #35
Dave e Victoria
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I'm going to give two replies. The first is my impression and the second is a discussion of what causes chucking and how these systems behave from a technical standpoint.

First, We have owned both the trail air and the Mor ryde. Our Big Sky came with neither and the ride home from the dealer was intolerable. I immediately ordered a Trail air and installed it myself. The difference in ride was dramatic. Later, I understood that part of the bad ride home from the dealer was due to the fact that I had nothing in the trailer.

Being an engineer by training and profession, I had to understand what was going on. (Read reply two) The trail air has the possibility of about 6 db reduction of chucking motion and I think it comes pretty close. However, it translated chucking into up down motion due to its geometry. Also, when hooking and unhooking it requires more jack motion to compensate for the vertical freedom in the hitch.

I became aware of the Mor ryde at the first Rally in Goshen . The design appeared to directly address chucking. I was impressed by the simplicity and elegance of the design. So, when we bought our Cambridge, I speced out the unit with the Mor Ryde. IMHO, it is every bit as good as the Trail air without introducing any up down motion. It is slightly cheaper than the TrailAir and I believe it is the best solution for the money.
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Old 02-15-2007, 03:54 PM   #36
Dave e Victoria
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Reply Two.
The two issues most likely affecting ride are bouncing and chucking. I have come to believe that bouncing issues mostly involve the suspension of the TV and trailer. If either is bottoming out there is not much one can do to solve the problem by modifying the hitch. Crawl under the loaded trailer and measure the distnce between the axle and the frame. If this distance is less than two inches you are not going to have a good ride.

Turning to chucking, this phenomenon is unique to fifth wheel geometry and does not exist on properly loaded travel trailers. (They have their own problems which are also due to geometry and are much worse.). The geometry problem for fifth wheels results from the height of the hitch point above the rear axle of the TV.. If you visualize this distance as a sort of lever you will note that anything that causes the plane of the tires to be uneven, such as the front tires of the tv going over a bump, the fixed point connetion between the TV and trailer must either push the trailer back or the TV forward. The result is a jolt in the back of the seat. The only way to address this problem is to introduce some elastic member between the inertia of the trailer and the inertia of the TV. This elasticity is what the rubber provides in the MorRyde or what the airbag and shock provide in the Air Ride.

Chucking motion translates into mostly foreaft jolts. If the hitch point is increased a lot the motion would begin to translate into up down motion in the ride. Fortunately, this is not the case in properly loaded trailers.. If we could get the hitchpoint closer to the TV axle we coul largely eliminate chucking. Infact, this is an advantage of gooseneck style hitches.

I mentioned proper loading in the last paragraph. Since there is some tendency to translate chucking motion into up down motion, a tailer that is perfectly balanced around its own axle will amplify any tendency to translate chucking into a bounce. Forward loading of the trailer will virtually eliminate this tendency. That is why trailers loaded with about 20% 0f the overall load on the pin will ride better. Of course that assumes that both trailer and TV are well within the weight rating of the suspensions.
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