Quality Control - Montana Owners Club

exav8tr · 12-31-2006, 07:42 PM

Dear Keystone, I am new to the RV experience and I have bought a 2006 3400RL here in Anchorage, Alaska. After reading many posts from many different people, I am truly concerned about the quality of the coach I have bought.

It seems many folks have problems with; Apollo Oven, Leaky slides, loose electrical wiring, wiring that catches fire, slides don't work, furnaces that cut off, gas system inop and a few others I know I am missing.

I so want this experience to be a good one and yet, I am starting out with a jaundiced eye towards your product. I only hope when I start using my Montana that these problems were only isolated.

It would appear to me that you folks need to hire someone else to do your QC as whomever is doing it now is not doing a very thorough job.

I am GLAD to see that you stand behind your product and fix things as they break down, however, this is the easy way out.

As a new camper, I want to enjoy my experience, not roadtest my trailer everytime I get in it.

I am planning on having my dealer and a licensed electrician go over my rig before I remove it from his lot. I do not feel that I should be the quality control monitor.

Don't get me wrong, I am not naive enough to think that things don't break from time to time, but a NEW product should last a certain amount of time before thing start going bad.

Happy camping

Phil Paramore

Glenn and Lorraine · 01-01-2007, 02:02 AM

Phil, Consider this...

The MOC has, at this writing, 6647 members. Of those 6647 members I would venture a guess that maybe 5% or 332 of them do any posting to this forum. Of that 5% less than half or 166 have had any significant problems.
Now I would have no idea how many Montanas and Mountaineers there are on the road but 166 or even all of the 332 regulars on here is nothing more that a very tiny drop in the bucket.
And folks rarely talk about the problems they don't have. There are many many MOC members, such as myself, that have never had a problem. I've had my Monty on the road full timing for over 3 years with very few minor problems and no, zero, zilch, zip major problems. I have that much confidence in the Montana line that I will be purchasing my second Montana in just a few weeks without even considering any other make. If it don't say Montana I won't own it.
One last thing, when you hear about component problems such as the oven, refrigerator, furnace, water heater, TV, etc consider the fact that Montana buys these components directly from the manufacturer and these are the exact same components that nearly every RV manufacturer buys for their rugs.

indy roadrunner · 01-01-2007, 02:32 AM

From one Phill to another. In support of what Glenn said in previous post I have only had minor annoyances. I had the top seal on the main slide lowered and some tape placed on the outboard side of the bedroom slide. The latter I blame on myself as I was up on top of the Monty with a leaf blower blowing off leaves and limbs after a storm and I think I blew in some areas not designed for 100 mile an hour wind.
I believe there are more Montana's out there without problems than there are with problems. I also believe some of the problems you have seen blamed on Keystone could have been the result of owners mistakes. You never know how these things that are designed to be a recreational vehicle are abused. Some feel there is nothing wrong with pulling them 70 - 75 mph down highways and admit how rough the roads are then when something breaks - it's Keytone's fault. They take an modify things putting this new gadget in re-working something else and tearing the whole thing apart to see what it is made out of then something goes wrong - it's Keystones fault. As Glenn has said the Montana is made up of many components that are not manufactured or assembled by Keystone and you find them in other RV brands and you find the other RV brands with some of the same problems.
I'm sorry I just had to vent. I use my Monty as an RV, it is not loaded to the gills with everything I own, I won't my Monty to last as long as I do so I take it easy when I am pulling it. I don't take it apart just to see that makes it tick. There are going to be things that fail just from use and I expect that and willing to deal with it - after all is said and done Thank You Montana for all the pleasure you have given me over the past year.

stiles watson · 01-01-2007, 02:40 AM

Hi Phil,

I hear your emotions in this post. I, too, wish these annoying problems wouldn't happen. Be assured Keystone stock is not in my portfolio nor am I on their payroll. In addition to what Glenn has said, I would add these thoughts.

I have owned automobiles from each of the Big Three USA manufacturers plus some outside that group. This group includes Towncars and New Yorkers (never owned a Caddy). In addition I have owned Volvo, VW, Nissan, Toyota, Hyundia and Honda. All these vehicles I bought new. Not one of them escaped the need to be returned to the dealer for some issue early in the game. It was always irritating.

I have also had the enraging experience of having a home built. I would go out after they had left the site for the day and literally kick out crooked lumber being used in framing. Finally, I had to decide to either kill the builder or give up on some things and just enjoy the new home.

Maybe I am too stoic, but without liking it or acquiescing to it, I have learned to expect errors in construction and assembly even with the most reputable companies. When I built computers for clients, I could never promise perfection -- only correction.

LonnieB · 01-01-2007, 02:57 AM

I agree with Glenn, Indy, and Stiles.

I've only had mine a few months, and only taken it on a couple of trips, but I can tell you I'm as happy as a pig in a mud hole, with my purchase of a Montana. I looked at alot of units over a 2 year span before deciding on the Montana, some were much more expensive, but none not even one, gave me the feeling of quality construction that the Montana did.

As I read about problems others have had with theirs, I check them out on mine, and so far have found none of the major ones. I HAVE found a few stripped screws in cabinet doors, a couple of loose wire connections, a bad switch on the light under the overhang, and a couple of hoses that were kinked on the fresh water fill. All easy fixes that I didn't mind doing.

You are right about needing improvements in quality control, but the same can be said about the mfg. of most of the items we purchase in todays marketplace.

ols1932 · 01-01-2007, 03:48 AM

We've had our Montana over six years (purchased May 2006) and we've been completely satisfied. Yes we've had the minor problems (bent closet rod the first year due to too many clothes), leaky shower drain, leaky shower wall, furnace wouldn't ignite, refrigerator had to be replaced and toilet had to be replaced twice. I don't blame Keystone for any of these because I keep thinking about what would happen to my old stick house (mobile home) if it had to travel the roads we've traveled.
We have had some major problems that Keystone stood behind when the rig was four years out of warranty: cracks in fiberglass in left front and right rear (the right rear crack by the upper left corner of the slide could have been caused by my bike rack (two bikes) in the trailer hitch, though they didn't say that was what caused it. In addition, we were in Blythe, CA and the living room broke loose from the hydraulic mechanism. Keystone took care of that and I didn't even expect it. Incidentally, that repair was done at Beaudry RV in Tucson, AZ and they were the ones that got it done for nothing out of my pocket. They took pictures and e-mailed them to Keystone. Then with Keystone, they acknowledged they would pay for it, and they did.

I believe the QC at Keystone is probably on a par with most QC departments at the various RV manufacturers.

Orv

Mac · 01-01-2007, 04:40 AM

I too agree with everyone above. We've had minor problems, although ours is only a little over a year old. I think you can expect a certain percentage of problems with almost any product, including cars, computers, stick houses and RV's. I think you should not question the quality of your coach unless you have first hand experience with problems. I can tell you this Montana is better than any unit I've had going back to in-bed truck campers, Class C motorhomes, and other brands of 5vers.

Just enjoy, and look for little tips on MOC that might help a little situation or better yet help you avoid problems!

Just my two cents.

mac

richfaa · 01-01-2007, 05:41 AM

Everyone has very good points. Yes all/most RV Brands have the same problems.Yes Keystone stands, in most cases , behind the product and correct these issues.Our 06 3400 left the dealers lot after a rigorous PDI with no issues but has since suffered many of the issues mentioned above.Yes we do drive these Rv's down all kinds of roads but, Silly me, I assumed that since they are RV's they would be designed and engineered to run down the highway without shaking apart. Yes we are but a tiny, tiny fraction of Montana owners and a even smaller fract ion of Rv owners. Think about the vast number of Rv owners we do not hear about. Probabilities say that the issues we report are shared by a large number of Rv owners.We have a Montana and purchased it over many other brands and have no regrets.We would have done no better..no worse with another brand.We knew exactly what we were purchasing , We are not shocked or surprised by any of the issues that occur.That does not mean we are happy campers and will continue to hold Keystones feet to the fire till they and other maunfacturers improve the product and they will IF we the consumer let them know we want them to and yes it may cost us more $ but they already cost us a lot of $. PPPparamore..You are correct in what you wnat to do. Do a rigorous PDI, Have a electrician check the wireing, drop the underbelly, check the plumbing, check the fit and finish and find out who your Keystone district sales manager is and let him know you will be doing these things. Apply what you have learned on this and other forums. Our experience in talking with the Highest levels of Keystone/ Montana is they sincerely want to hear of these issues and will atempt to correct them. I for one will give credit when credit is due..openly and in writing to Keystone and will not hesitate to let them know what they can do better.
stay your course.Help make Montana a better product.

Parrothead · 01-01-2007, 05:57 AM

We are in that group of owners who have NOT had any major problems. Only a few little things here and there. Our stick house when purchased 11 years ago had a lot more problems than our Monty has had. Almost every vehicle I have owned has had at least 1 problem that had to go back to the dealer. Long ago we did a special factory order on a Ford. It caught fire the 2nd day we had it because the air conditioner had not been hooked up correctly. The dealer lived across the street from us and was a high school friend. He did not make it right to our satisfaction. He was not a friend anymore. We do not expect to never have to do anything to a 40 ft. home being driven over rough roads, subjected to all kinds of weather and used to the fullest. We love our Montana and would buy another in a heart beat. It is so far superior to the previous rigs we have owned that there is not even a comparison. Glenn's point is very good about the percentage of people that have problems.
Happy trails........................

exav8tr · 01-01-2007, 06:42 AM

I appreciate everyone weighing in on this subject. I guess I am getting antsy to live the life, as most say. I suppose the number one item to carry is a tool box. I have been pretty lucky over the years. Six homes, three new and very little maintenance problems, although there has been a few. I just feel like Rich in that a RV should be able to travel without the myriad of problems he and others have had. Hopefully when Anchorage thaws out I can do another inspection of my unit and check these things.

I also want to thank everyone for being patient with me and wish everyone a Happy and Prosperous New Year, oh yeah, and a maintenance free year.....

Phil P.

patodonn · 01-01-2007, 06:51 AM

I would just add...you can't blame Keystone for later-on failures of components over which they have no control...toilet water valves (Thetford), furnace, refrigerator (Dometic), hydraulic pumps/electrical slide motors (Lippert), propane valves, etc. Those fail at the same or greater rate in ALL applications..RVs, boats, airplanes, homes. I CAN place blame on Keystone (DESIGN and/or MFG) for poor electrical wiring insulation and installation deficiencies (like Rich's), same for water lines, incorrect adjustment of slides and seals, faulty roof installation (too short/not enough screws, insufficient caulking, poor gluing), etc.

The frame Mfg quality control is lacking if poor welds are found through customer use which result in extensive repairs to the frame. Should Keystone do extensive X-ray, current eddy or other NDI of those welds on all frames as they come into the factory? The frame Mfg does it, or says they do it, on everything coming to Keystone. Is double or triple redundant inspection of every component reasonable and cost-effective for any Manufacturer? Car, plane, RV or boat? Don't think so..

The best that can be done by Keystone is to put it all together, verify the assembly process is in accord with the design specifications at various steps along the way, and check that all the "stuff" works as advertised when it is all finished. Those two areas areas are where I think Keystone most needs to improve.

The customer can, and should, make a really thorough inspection at the final end point, the Dealers Just like a car. It isn't Keystone's FAULT, but it is Keystone's PROBLEM if the audio surround sound system fails after a couple of days of use. It is both Keystone's and the Dealer's FAULT if it doesn't work correctly when the customer checks it during PDI. They BOTH (IMHO) have a responsibility to verify correct operation before it is submitted to the customer. Just because it worked OK at the factory without moving more than a hundred ft from where it was built doesn't mean it will work OK after being towed a few hundred or thousand miles to the Dealer's. Same for your Ford, Chevvie or Dodge...I'm a really tough grader in that area, and I give Keystone a solid 6+. LOTS of room for improvement, but, in general, they do a fair job. I give them much better than that for Customer Support after the problems show up.

If the Dealer just washes the rig and hands it over to the Customer, that is a zero for them. If they do a thorough delivery inspection when they get it from Keystone, that is a 5 or 6. Not too many of them out there who get the 5 or 6, I'm afraid.

How's that for my first semi-rant of '07?

Happy New Year to All !!

Mudchief · 01-01-2007, 10:01 AM

Phil P, Just enjoy your new unit and don't let this forum destroy that. This is a great place for information. It is nice to know when someone has a problem so if you should have the same you know what to do. However that does not mean you will have that problem. I had zero problems with my other Montana and that is why I purchased another Montana.

richfaa · 01-01-2007, 10:13 AM

Phil.P..absolutly..Folks talk about problems because that is what bothers them and it is good to talk about them. There is much to learn.This forum is one where you CAN talk openly about any problem large or small and..find reasonable solutions. True, if folks talked about things that did not go wrong with their unit there would be endless post on the subject. 97% of my 3400 is trouble free..It is only the 3% that bothers me.

Glenn and Lorraine · 01-01-2007, 11:27 AM

One last comment...

Quote:

quote:I just feel like Rich in that a RV should be able to travel without the myriad of problems he and others have had.

In an ideal world that maybe true but we are not in that place and I doubt we ever will be. If they actually were to build a flawless RV none of us could begin to afford it as it would be priced in the multi-millions. Consider the fact that the Prevost Class A Motor Homes start at over a million and a half and those Prevost owners have the same problems as us Monty owners.

And above all don't let pparamore become pparanoid. You apparently found the rig you wanted at the price you wanted. Hopefully you went through it thoroughly before finalizing the deal and had any and all discovered problems corrected immediately. Now hang that 3400 Monty on the back of your 2005 GM, head it down the road and enjoy life at it's best.

exav8tr · 01-01-2007, 02:04 PM

Glenn, You are absolutely right. I can't wait, but will have to.

Thanks for all the input folks, this truly is a great forum and I have never seen a more caring bunch of folks. I hope to meet alot of you along the way.

Phil P.

Emmel · 01-01-2007, 03:22 PM

Well said Glenn, we liked our first Montana so much, we are in our second!

Montana Sky · 01-01-2007, 03:53 PM

I am thankful that I have the ability to own such a coach. I know things might go wrong, but I would rather cross that bridge when I get there. Life is so short, if we worry about the "could happen" we will miss the "is happening" in our lives. I am on my 2nd Montana, there will more than likely be a 3rd. Having a company that will stand behind their product says something not only about them, but their product as well. Do a good PDI with your dealership and have the coach checked out before you head southward to the lower 48. After that, sit back and enjoy the great adventures that await you!!!

stiles watson · 01-01-2007, 03:55 PM

After all the encouragement we have shared, let it also be said that we still want a "better bang for our buck." Striving for quality is an unending quest where no manufacturer has or will arrive. It is when that quest is abandoned due to complacency or arrogance that market share will and should be lost.

Dustytuu · 01-02-2007, 02:55 AM

Glen you said it very well. I could not have said it better.

We have only had minor problems with our Monty. We had a drawer fixed over a year ago, screen door adjusted and (my husband tightened the plumbing under the shower) No big deal. He also checked the electrical and tightened some things there. He would have checked that with any brand of 5th wheel.
Durtherm replaced our main AC and also fridge. But that is not Keystone's fault. They work great now!

We are very very happy with our Monty and will buy another. We are not ready to trade yet. But when we do it will be a Montana!

The Montana is not our first 5th wheel. We had two other brands before the Monty.
The Montana has held up better than any 5th wheel we have had!

ARJ · 01-02-2007, 06:30 AM

We too have had some minor things that needed fixing-slide adjustments, kitchen drawer frame falling apart and the bathroom door not square. But if you stop to think what you are getting and the price you paid, considering the dealer profit as well, I would surmise that you really got a decent unit for the price. Friends of ours researched units w/RV.Org and arrived at the conclusion that Cruiser was a better unit than Montana/Mountaineer. Guess what! He has had more SERIOUS problems than I have.

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