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02-19-2008, 03:59 PM
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#1
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New Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brighton
Posts: 4
M.O.C. #8072
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No water at all when freezing
Greetings,
I'm parked on the High Plains of Colorado. When we have a really cold night I can't get any water at all -- not city water, not on-board fresh water, nothing. The pump won't even try.
My water hose is heat-taped and stays flexible in freezing weather, so I don't think the freeze-up is outside. I suspect it might be a water line inside the underbelly that's common to both the fresh water tank and city water. I really don't think furnace heat is getting to the rear part of the trailer.
Anyone have any ideas or what's going on or better yet a solution to the problem that doesn't cost an estimated $6,000?
Springtime is coming, and am I glad.
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02-19-2008, 04:22 PM
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#2
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Montana Master
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oceanside
Posts: 20,028
M.O.C. #20
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Does your Mountaineer have two hoses hanging below the belly very close together? If so, those are the low point drains, one on the hot line, one on the cold. If those freeze up into the belly it will stop the water flow. That happened to us on our 2003 Montana. The temporary cure is to use a hairdryer on them, laying on the ground under the rig, until the water flows. I tried insulating and taping them to no avail. Then I got some heat tape from Tractor Supply that is approved for wrapping around pipes. I heat taped those low point drains, covered them with insulation and then with duct tape. The next three winters those did not freeze again. I just left the tape in place all year long even when traveling.
Another possibility is your water lines are probably laying on the frame in side the belly. I'm assuming the Mountaineer has an enclosed belly? Same problem on our 2003. To solve that I used foam pipe insulation on all the water lines in the belly. And, of course, made sure the furnace ran occasionally to pump heat into the belly.
This is not a fun problem. Been there. I hope you get it straightened out soon.
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02-20-2008, 01:37 AM
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#3
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Montana Master
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location:
Posts: 2,376
M.O.C. #6575
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On the low point drains Steve mentioned, I installed a couple of those Styrofoam faucet covers from a local hardware store. I used the ones with the rubber band, as the one with the hook wouldn't stay on. Of course, we weren't in CO, merely East TX, but we got down to around 20* with no problems.
You might want to take a look and see if the furnace hose to the underbelly is intact. On our Mountaineer (fifth wheel) there is a 2" or so foil hose that leaves the side of the furnace and goes to the underbelly. That hose is sort of flimsy, and I could see it getting squashed very easy.
Edit: I am a little puzzled by the pump not running. To the best of my knowledge, these are "demand pumps", that only shut down on pressure on the discharge of the pump. I'm thinking the pump should run regardless of water supply. Perhaps something else is going on.
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02-20-2008, 02:06 AM
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#4
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Montana Master
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Leona
Posts: 6,382
M.O.C. #2059
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Looks like your question has been answered from men of experience. I also see this is your first post. Welcome to the MOC. Hope you will be a regular poster.
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02-20-2008, 05:25 AM
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#5
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Montana Master
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oceanside
Posts: 20,028
M.O.C. #20
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by SlickWillie
On the low point drains Steve mentioned, I installed a couple of those Styrofoam faucet covers from a local hardware store. I used the ones with the rubber band, as the one with the hook wouldn't stay on. Of course, we weren't in CO, merely East TX, but we got down to around 20* with no problems.
You might want to take a look and see if the furnace hose to the underbelly is intact. On our Mountaineer (fifth wheel) there is a 2" or so foil hose that leaves the side of the furnace and goes to the underbelly. That hose is sort of flimsy, and I could see it getting squashed very easy.
Edit: I am a little puzzled by the pump not running. To the best of my knowledge, these are "demand pumps", that only shut down on pressure on the discharge of the pump. I'm thinking the pump should run regardless of water supply. Perhaps something else is going on.
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All good points Will. I would like to add that when I tried just insulating the low point drains, that worked down to about 17 degrees. Then they froze again. Thus the addition of heat tape. So if the temperature won't go below 20 or thereabouts, then insulating those low point drains might be plenty good.
I wonder if the pump fuse or breaker blew with the pump trying to pump into an ice obstruction?
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02-20-2008, 05:17 PM
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#6
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New Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brighton
Posts: 4
M.O.C. #8072
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Hi Folks,
Thanks for your response. Indeed, there are two low point drains poking through the underbelly. For the immediate future I'm thinking of setting up a small floodlight aimed right at those suckers.
There might be some fairly major work scheduled for the next reasonably mild weekend which is to get into the underbelly, possibly wrapping some of the water lines and adding a 1 1/2" furnace hose. I've GOT to get some heat to the back since both the black water and fresh water tanks don't seem to be getting any protection, neither by heat nor insulation. I don't want either of those puppies to freeze. We'll also check the existing furnace hose for damage or blockage. One thing for sure, there is heat getting to the water lines up front near the kitchen sink. The water runs warm there for about 5 seconds when the furnace is operating (which is most of the time these days).
As for the pump, it does work when things thaw out. When I have the freeze-up the blockage probably occurs between the inside water faucets and the pump. As far as it "knows," there's no demand at all, so it doesn't start.
Thus finishes my second post. Sorry about being in "whine" mode so early in the game.
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02-22-2008, 12:08 PM
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#7
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Montana Master
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location:
Posts: 2,376
M.O.C. #6575
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Hmmmm, Steve, I'm kind of scared to ask what that is.
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02-22-2008, 12:23 PM
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#8
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Montana Master
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Paola
Posts: 5,739
M.O.C. #4961
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I had the same problem with my other Montana and to fix the problem I did what was talked about above. Put foam around the water lines that are laying against the steel frame. For the low point drains I did something different. I added a shut off valve to the bottom of each tube. Then in the fall I would drain everything. After that I would take a large syringe and fill those tubes with the pink stuff and shut off the valve. Being these are low point drains there is no place for the pink stuff to go, so it remains in them and thus no more freezing.
__________________
Dennis & Linda Ward
Paola, Kansas
Montana 3735MK Legacy Edition
1200 watts of Solar
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02-22-2008, 03:08 PM
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#9
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Montana Master
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oceanside
Posts: 20,028
M.O.C. #20
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by SlickWillie
Hmmmm, Steve, I'm kind of scared to ask what that is.
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Sorry, Will. That was meant for another thread. I usually have several threads open at the same time. For a discussion on another thread I took a picture, put it on photobucket, then posted it. Here. Oops. Sorry. It is the A/C duct when you remove the vent cover.
Back to this thread, does the Mountaineer have a furnace hose ducting into the belly now? If not, the 2 inch hose used on the Montana keeps everything from freezing in ours. At least I know it does down to 5 below (F). If you could get a hose in there as you propose, that would make things much better.
The low point drains are still a concern, though, even with a furnace duct in the belly. Someone, I cannot remember who, cut those hoses back into the belly and replaced the valves with long valves so that the valve itself is inside the belly but the handle for the valve is below the belly. Thus, no water outside the belly to freeze.
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02-22-2008, 06:42 PM
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#10
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New Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brighton
Posts: 4
M.O.C. #8072
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Yes, there is a 2" furnace hose. I can only see about 3 feet of it and won't be able to tell what's going on downstream until I can open up the underbelly . One of the proposed tasks is to check for kinks, breaks, and blockages in the existing one and fix any problems, if any, before thinking about adding the 2nd hose.
I'd be interested in getting the low point drain valves located above the underbelly with the valve handles accessible from outside. If anyone can provide specific details of the installation, I'll be forever grateful.
Thanks for all the good suggestions. I can hardly wait till next winter to see how well they work (NOT!).
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02-23-2008, 05:38 AM
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#11
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Montana Master
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oceanside
Posts: 20,028
M.O.C. #20
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Dave, you're not in whine mode. You have a problem and you came here for help. That's what MOC is supposed to be about. In my opinion you are doing what you should.
I'll avoid the long story but a few years ago I had a mobile tech out to help us get unfrozen. He found I'd neglected (I had gotten sick and stopped working and then forgot it) to button up a rear corner of the belly pan. The fender there acted like a scoop to bring the cold north wind into the belly at that rear corner. We had the furnace running and he noted that there was plenty of heat coming form the furnace duct that was in the front opposite corner, enough to keep the entire belly from freezing, according to him. In my case it wasn't enough to overcome the single digits wind scooped into the belly. My point is that duct should be plenty to keep things warm. The problem is likely your water lines lying on the cold frame and freezing at that point. At least that was what happened in ours prior to my insulating those lines.
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