Warning re solar gland & howto pull new wires - Montana Owners Club

bcrvman · 07-01-2020, 04:32 PM

Hi, I am installing a solar system on my 2018 model year Montana 3811MS. I need to pull much bigger wires from the roof to the battery bank. I scraped off the silicon covering the solar wire gland (I think that's what it's called) and was very surprised to see the rust and obvious water damage (hard to see the damp wood). Any of you with the solar prep package might want to check yours out. That's the warning part.
My question is has anybody used the existing wires to pull new wires? As you can see from the picture, those #10 wires they tell you are in there only go about 6" then they are attached to something that looks at least one size smaller. I need #4's so need to use the old wires to pull the new wires. I cannot see any wires that look like them when I take off the inCommand in order to see behind. It is full of wires, but most are 110 wires.
Has anyone been able to locate the right wires?

PNW Fireguy · 07-01-2020, 06:20 PM

Not my preference but you can always raise the voltage by wiring your panels in series. For example 6 panels in series with a Voc of 24v would give you a working voltage around 150v thereby negating your loses. Just make sure the panels selected have blocking diodes. A 150v solar charger will cost you a bit more but I bet it is less than the time and money it looks like you might have ahead.

bcrvman · 07-01-2020, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PNW Fireguy

Not my preference but you can always raise the voltage by wiring your panels in series. For example 6 panels in series with a Voc of 24v would give you a working voltage around 150v thereby negating your loses. Just make sure the panels selected have blocking diodes. A 150v solar charger will cost you a bit more but I bet it is less than the time and money it looks like you might have ahead.

I have 4 170W panels, each is 19.01V x 8.91A. I want the panels in parallel to minimize any shading losses. 23 ft of #4 wire isn't that expensive, $95.

BTW, the pre-installed wires are at best #12 so even if all in parallel the loss is much higher.

Now back to the question, how do I identify the solar wires behind the GoPower sticker?

PNW Fireguy · 07-01-2020, 07:30 PM

If those panels have blocking diodes I would wire them in series to raise your vollage. The panels are already such a low Voc I think you would be much better off. You are never going to see 36 amps output. Those numbers are STC. Anyway just verify if they have a diode and you might be able to save yourself some headache and obtain an outcome that actually performs better than the original design. Pushing 8 amps at 80V through an MPPT controller will give you a better outcome.

The wires have markings on the outer jacket detailing the type and gauge of wire. If the wire is stapled you are not going to be able to pull it out. I would think that there would probably be a sufficient amount at the controller to pull enough out to see the markings. Your 12AWG can carry 20 amps.

bcrvman · 07-01-2020, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PNW Fireguy

If those panels have blocking diodes I would wire them in series to raise your vollage. The panels are already such a low Voc I think you would be much better off. You are never going to see 36 amps output. Those numbers are STC. Anyway just verify if they have a diode and you might be able to save yourself some headache and obtain an outcome that actually performs better than the original design. Pushing 8 amps at 80V through an MPPT controller will give you a better outcome.

The wires have markings on the outer jacket detailing the type and gauge of wire. If the wire is stapled you are not going to be able to pull it out. I would think that there would probably be a sufficient amount at the controller to pull enough out to see the markings. Your 12AWG can carry 20 amps.

I appreciate that you are trying to help, but I have been planning and designing this for several years. I have a background in electronics, been an industrial electrician and my first computer was in 1959. I ended up with my own computer company so I kinda know how to analyse and design. I understand the tradeoffs between parallel and series.

All I want is some clue how to identify the original wires so I can use them to pull new wires. The only wires I see that match up colour wise are NOT dead headed, they are connected to another set of wires. My wife might have figured it out. Since the controller was specified by Keystone to go where I see the wires, the second set might terminate near the battery compartment. I will check out that very likely possibility. It would be nice if Keystone had provided some documentation as to what the solar prep entailed. I will update later if my wife was right.

RMcNeal · 07-02-2020, 05:18 AM

That's what I was told about about the solar prep. Mine are behind the wall in the door side basement compartment (under the bedroom). I assume that's where the controller would go if I ever decided to put in solar.

PNW Fireguy · 07-02-2020, 06:34 AM

If the wires are stapled you will need a new path.

bcrvman · 07-02-2020, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PNW Fireguy

If the wires are stapled you will need a new path.

The only other path I can think of right now is over the side and drill a hole above the door. That would be ugly if I can't pull them.

speedster100 · 07-02-2020, 07:52 AM

My suggestion would be to use the existing wires to pull through a proper electrical snake wire and then use that to pull through your new heavier guage wires. I'm not sure of the tinsel strength of the existing wires themselves but I do know that a regular snake used for pulling wires can handle the job.... Just a thought BTW thanks for warning in regard to the roof mount, I was up on the roof checking everything on the 3120RL we just bought and didn't like the looks of how they sealed the plastic mount at all. I used Dicor to reseal all the areas. I suspected this set up as shipped from the factory was LTA with that cheap black sealant. Appears I was correct. Likely an issue on all of them.....

speedster100 · 07-02-2020, 08:00 AM

Also I did see on their video that Keystone has already ran the wires to the battery compartment, do you suppose the other wires run to the battery ? It was very confusing on the video. I have a Go Power panel that I plan on plugging into the roof connection on occasion when boon docking and it has its own built in controller. My plan was/is to plug it in and then check the voltage/amps at the battery or on the level up panel to see if indeed there is another set of wires feeding the battery box. If not I'll have to connect the wires together in behind where the controller is to be mounted. A very confusing video and lacking in clarity from Keystone as well....

bcrvman · 07-02-2020, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedster100

My suggestion would be to use the existing wires to pull through a proper electrical snake wire and then use that to pull through your new heavier guage wires. I'm not sure of the tinsel strength of the existing wires themselves but I do know that a regular snake used for pulling wires can handle the job.... Just a thought BTW thanks for warning in regard to the roof mount, I was up on the roof checking everything on the 3120RL we just bought and didn't like the looks of how they sealed the plastic mount at all. I used Dicor to reseal all the areas. I suspected this set up as shipped from the factory was LTA with that cheap black sealant. Appears I was correct. Likely an issue on all of them.....

That's a good idea, if the wire is 12AWG then it's only 197lbs but if it's the advertised 10AWG then it's 314lbs. I was going to tie on a parachute cord just in case it broke and I had to pull back but the snake is MUCH stronger.
Just for chuckles I just ran the numbers for 23' of #10 at 30 amps and the voltage drop is 11.81%. What a joke, that's why I am replacing with 4AWG.

bcrvman · 07-02-2020, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedster100

Also I did see on their video that Keystone has already ran the wires to the battery compartment, do you suppose the other wires run to the battery ? It was very confusing on the video. I have a Go Power panel that I plan on plugging into the roof connection on occasion when boon docking and it has its own built in controller. My plan was/is to plug it in and then check the voltage/amps at the battery or on the level up panel to see if indeed there is another set of wires feeding the battery box. If not I'll have to connect the wires together in behind where the controller is to be mounted. A very confusing video and lacking in clarity from Keystone as well....

Haven't seen the video, but my wife suggested that they may go up to the old battery compartment. After a couple of coffees and some breakfast I will run that down. I am 99.999% sure you are both right. Now I will be able to pull the new wires all the way and not need the fish I already have installed.
Thanks

speedster100 · 07-02-2020, 08:14 AM

You've got me motivated now, after I finish my coffee and change into some shorts I'm going to drag my Go Power solar panel kit up onto the roof and hook it into the solar receiver and then go check for voltage/amp changes to confirm they ran a second set of wires to the battery box. Was going to actually do that just prior to our first boondock trip but now I need to know.... If indeed this is the set up it's kind of a crazy set up if you ask me.... especially if one set of wires is a guage smaller.... WTF

bcrvman · 07-02-2020, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedster100

You've got me motivated now, after I finish my coffee and change into some shorts I'm going to drag my Go Power solar panel kit up onto the roof and hook it into the solar receiver and then go check for voltage/amp changes to confirm they ran a second set of wires to the battery box. Was going to actually do that just prior to our first boondock trip but now I need to know.... If indeed this is the set up it's kind of a crazy set up if you ask me.... especially if one set of wires is a guage smaller.... WTF

In order to 'see' the solar, you need to disconnect the battery and turn off the converter. To use it in an ongoing way, it has to go thru a solar charge controller. It sounds like you are wanting to place a portable panel on your roof. That is very dangerous. If the wind picks up you could have a big problem. Also, one panel will do next to nothing for boondocking. I have the minimum setup with 4 Battle Born 100AH batteries and 4x170W of solar. I have been planning for several years and am sure this will work for our planned 5 days at a time boondocking but I also have a pair of Honda 2K inverter generators just in case. 6 panels would be much better.

speedster100 · 07-02-2020, 08:54 AM

I've used this Go Power Panel for 3 - 4yrs on our 3790RD, it is used to top up the batteries during the day when I run the roof vent fans. It has done a very good job of doing that using the Furion plug on the 3790RD that was in the convenience panel. Both the 3790RD and now the 3120RL have RV fridge's. This Go Power Kit is very heavy and unless we are having a very nasty storm there is little chance it would be blown off the roof so not worried about that. I could see the voltage/amp change without disconnecting the batteries on the 3790RD with my meter and have no reason to believe I won't see the change on this 3120RL but we shall see shortly. BTW I have a Honda 3000is to bring the batteries back to full charge when we are at festivals for a week or two boondocking. The 100 Watt Go Power panel kit helps hold charge during the day when the heat is high and fans help keep the unit cool and the fridge fans are running full time..... It has worked great for those purposes.

speedster100 · 07-02-2020, 09:33 AM

So this kit is the same as mine only mine is 100 watt, just checked all the connectors that came with it (i kept it all inside the bag). None of them work with the Jacobi Connectors on the roof, so I'll be making a trip to the local Go Power dealer to get the right plug connector. Why they didn't just use Furion as they have in the past ???? Oh well.....

bcrvman · 07-02-2020, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedster100

So this kit is the same as mine only mine is 100 watt, just checked all the connectors that came with it (i kept it all inside the bag). None of them work with the Jacobi Connectors on the roof, so I'll be making a trip to the local Go Power dealer to get the right plug connector. Why they didn't just use Furion as they have in the past ???? Oh well.....

Can you post a picture? Mine are industry standard MC4 connectors, I would be very shocked if yours are different. Just google MC4, it even has a Wiki page. Never heard of Jacobi.

speedster100 · 07-02-2020, 09:47 AM

Here is the updated kit (90 Watt) that replaced mine, it comes with several adapters but not the MC4... It does have the Furion ends which I've been using since purchase and everything is plug & play by changing out adapters except nothing to adapt to the one on the 3120's roof now. He'll have them in stock & will likely just give me one as he is the biggest solar dealer in our area and I've bought quite a bit from him and sent lots his way. Many I hang out with at festivals have the same system as mine. I want this on the roof as it is less likely to walk away than having them sitting on the ground, I've never left the panels sitting unattended for that reason. Now that I have a roof connection I'll use it.... https://gpelectric.com/products/90-w...ble-solar-kit/

bcrvman · 07-02-2020, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedster100

Here is the updated kit (90 Watt) that replaced mine, it comes with several adapters but not the MC4... It does have the Furion ends which I've been using since purchase and everything is plug & play by changing out adapters except nothing to adapt to the one on the 3120's roof now. He'll have them in stock & will likely just give me one as he is the biggest solar dealer in our area and I've bought quite a bit from him and sent lots his way. Many I hang out with at festivals have the same system as mine. I want this on the roof as it is less likely to walk away than having them sitting on the ground, I've never left the panels sitting unattended for that reason. Now that I have a roof connection I'll use it.... https://gpelectric.com/products/90-w...ble-solar-kit/

Sorry, never heard of a Furion connector. In the link all I see are industry standard connectors, Anderson, alligator and ring. These products are meant to be plugged into a special port on the side of the RV NOT on the roof. Sometimes they even use trolling motor connectors.

Daryles · 07-02-2020, 01:02 PM

Here are the Jamboni videos that show the location of the wiring.
Someone else mentioned above about if the current wiring is stapled it will be very difficult/impossible to use the existing wire as pulls.
Some people have used the vent pipes to run the wiring through. If you use #4 stranded wire it will be easier to pull (flexible).
Picture shows behind my control panel and behind the basement walls.
Jaboni/Montana solar prep
https://youtu.be/mhE9pSum_nA

Jaboni/Montana solar install
https://youtu.be/gn3BIWaSb4c

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