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Old 01-08-2005, 11:14 AM   #1
CountryGuy
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Ramblings (LONG): Reliablitiy & Heard from dealer

Decided to post as a seperate thread, and sorry, it is a long comment, aka, musings, aka, ramblings. Sorta in response to the thread on Reliablity and Harleyriders thread about Heard Back from the Dealer. Refer back to those threads, if you are confused. (that said, we know ole Carol is confused a lot! ) Here we go:

Not sure just where we stand on this issue, but keep going back to the thought, can we really blame Montana/Keystone for failures with Dometic air conditioners, failures with Alko axles?? Just for 2 examples. We have heard mumblings about Alko having a major problem on their manufacturing lines, one or two employees really messing up. Now, let me repeat that, we heard MUMBLINGS. We cannot subtantiate that!! We all note that Montana/Keystone no longer uses Alko. Looks like from where we are sitting that when problems started up with that axle, they went looking elsewhere, found something and changed.

It has all been said before, trouble with suppliers and quality of the materials from those suppliers. Running changes at Keystone. Read the other forums, other manufacturers all have trouble, some more than others, some we hear about more than others, some take care of their customers, others do not. Some customers seem to get treated better than others.

Answers, well we ain't got none, except to give Keystone a chance and be nice to those poor people answering their phones. We don't want to deal with snotty people, and I am sure they don't either.

Everyone states, be sure your dealer is a good one. Great advice, and how to you know that, maybe stand outside their service bays and listen to their customers, better than 50% ranting and raving, and you go elsewhere?? Just cause they got a fancy building and a lot of bays does not insure that they will treat you right or with equity. It depends on their attitude and ability to get quality workers. I said to Al a couple of times, how would you like to be in business, selling RV's and try to find quality workers to repair them?? Now that is a nightmare scenerio that gives me hives!

Maybe we do need lemon laws on RV's. If that is your strong belief, then you need to start with your state legislature. Is there any state, even one, that has such a law??

Maybe we owe it to Keystone to report to them, factually, not in a state of hysteria, when we find a dealer that is less that stellar?? Found one in Texas with the most filthy Montana's you have ever seen, I am not talking a little dust or road dirt on the outside, I am talking gravel and sand on every floor of every unit! Simple door adjustments were not made, stuff hanging out (most of had these units at a show, had all the little decorator items, thrown in closets, what a mess). Believe me, if we had never seen a Montana before, we would never have considered one after visiting this dealership. And, yea, some of the powers that be at Montana heard about it from us. Did they do anything, have no idea, but they heard about it.

Al and I have had 2 brand new Rv's that we ordered, a TT from another manufacturer, ordered and purchased in 1989, sold to purchase the Montana, in 2003. Had our fair share of problems with that unit, windows that did not fit, it took the plant 4 tries in one day to get that corrected, and that said, it really was not fixed 100%, several years later the window stopped functioning correctly and we lived with it that way for years.

Same TT, frame lost its camber. Just barely a year old. Again, fixed by the manufacturer. We were we happy?? NOPE, more like hysterical (for me) and angry (for Al). Both of us worried.

Have a boat trailer, currently it is not even 8 years old. First year, guess what, frame lost its camber. Again, fixed by manufactuer.

Do you see a pattern here??

At one time, someone dropped a number on us, the number representing what percentage of trailers came with camber trouble. Don't remember the exact number, but it was like 1 to 5 %. That is a LOT! Would not be acceptable in the automotive industry. Would it??

Will we trade our Montana in for another unit, hoping for better? NOPE. Not in the foreseeable future. This was a long term financial commitment for us, and replacement $$ are not in our foreseeable future.

We accept that maintenance must be done to keep RV's in workable and enjoyable order. Not that doing the work is a lot of fun, who wants to do work, when ya could be playing??

But, it is really upsetting to look at a large outlay of your cash and realize that you have some serious problems, maybe leaking slides, axles that are weak and bend, causing tires to scald out in less than 6000 miles, air conditioners that pee all over the carpet due to a error in engineering. The leaking faucets and horrible stereo sound systems are irritating, but can be fixed by most of us owners.

We have said any number of times here on the forum, that if you are gonna take these monsters out on the hard road you better be handy with your $$ AND handy with your hands. You better be able to fix most of the minor stuff, and you better have the $$ reserves to deal with the maintenance, like new shackles, new tires (after a reasonable time, not in one year, unless you drive, say, 30,000 miles a year, for example).

Maybe it boils down to every owner having their own unique experience and expectations. Each dealer is different, each service department is different, each unit is made a bit different, we each have different tolerance levels, what may bug us might not be an issue with you. We each handle it differently too. That said, would venture that we all are concerned about spending that much $$ and having what we consider to be big trouble.

No answers, as no answer is gonna be the right one for all of us. Our dealer was great during the sale. Loved the salesperson. Went downhill right after delivery. Seriously downhill. We had suspected we might have trouble with them after the sale, but several of the other dealers (that we knew of) within striking distance had worse reputations. Gotta buy it from someone.

Love the unit, love the layout, it suits our lifestyle. Cannot afford the $80,000 & units. Not sure we want to haul around all that weight either, as many of the more expensive units are much heavier.

It ain't a perfect world, but we don't relish spending our $$ on units that have serious problems either, problems that are NOT of our doing. Work with Montana/Keystone and try to resolve the difficulties, and we are well aware that sometimes that takes the patience of a saint.

Also acknowledge that MANY of you have only minor irritation problems with your units. In fact, from the posts of the happy happy owners, it would look like the majority of you are not experiencing major trouble. For you, congrats, we are truly happy for you. For a few of us that have trouble, the experience is less than happy, it is downright scarry. That said, so far, Montana/Keystone has been very helpful to us on our situations. We believe, from past treatment, that they will continue to be there for us! They have treated us well, and we feel we have treated them fairly as well, decent human beings do that for each other. And Montana/Keystone is made up of decent human beings.

Note that a lot of this post is generalizations, used for examples. We fully acknowledge that there are many opinions and many experiences. Isn't that what makes the world go round??

This post is not meant as a flame to any other MOC members, so, please do not take personal offense at my rambling on this way!

For now, Happy Trails, stay safe and try to enjoy that RV.

My musings are over, (for now, anyway )

Carol
 
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Old 01-08-2005, 11:26 AM   #2
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I said a few of the same things at the end of the last post, Country Guy. Another thing, every time that Montana has had an issue that was widespread, they made a change to future units. They have beefed up their axles and changed vendors. No one likes to deal with problems, but I have found the Montana people were extremely proud of their product when we were at the rally, and everyone at the rally was happy to be a Montana owner. I know a few of the owners bought new units after the rally. For one, I have my eye on a new Cambridge in about eight years. Thanks for a good post.

Ron
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Old 01-08-2005, 12:09 PM   #3
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About all I can add is if Michillin makes the tires, and Magna makes the rims, and Jose upholstered the seats, I expect Daimler Chrysler to make it right and take the heat for their suppliers.

I just can't forgive Keystone for using sub standard or outright defective components (Alko Axels) and then saying... "hands off it's our supplier".

Maybe no one agrees, but I think the RV industry and the Auto industry should be held to the same standard.
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Old 01-08-2005, 02:01 PM   #4
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Carol, as often happens, I find your point of view very similar to my own. We have been most fortunate that we have not had some of the problems that others have experienced. Still, I think those who have had problems have every right to express them here. I can't see that there is ground for debate based on our varying experiences. One good (or many good) experience(s) does not set off one bad (or many bad) experience(s). Nor does the fact that Keystone/Montana has, as has often been expressed here, "stepped up to the plate", excuse for one minute the failure to address the serious problems that some owners have faced.

For others who have not seen a similar expression of my opinion, you may see it under the thread "Reliability". I will now bow out of a discussion where I was not invited and will not try to address this same kind of issue which surfaces time and again in many different threads.
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Old 01-08-2005, 02:35 PM   #5
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Padre,

All I can say to your most eloquent post is, AMEN

This Too Shall Pass
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Old 01-08-2005, 04:00 PM   #6
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I guess I don't quite understand which situations Keystone has not 'stepped up to the plate.' Maybe I need to go back and re-read the posts.

For us, we had an axle problem. Keystone sent us to Alko-Kober after the rally and paid for replacement axles even though the axle warranty is two years and ours was 26 months old. We currently have another couple of issues. I've been on the phone with Keystone and we're planning to drop by their service center in May to get some things taken care of. So far, Keystone has treated us well.

When we get to Savannah and get settled in I'll try to go back and re-read those posts to see what I'm missing.
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Old 01-09-2005, 03:05 AM   #7
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Hi Steve! I've been following your travels from long before I finally joined this forum and feel like I know you and Vicki. I'm wondering, because of your quotation marks if you might be referring to my recent post above?
Quote:
quote:Nor does the fact that Keystone/Montana has, as has often been expressed here, "stepped up to the plate", excuse for one minute the failure to address the serious problems that some owners have faced.
In fact, you may not be referring to this quote at all, but I note that my point was that Keystone/Montana HAS, as has often been expressed here, "stepped up to the plate..."

Just wanted to emphasize the positive connotation of my previous post. The larger point of which is that we remain open to hear the experiences of all other owners and not feel any need to be defensive.

As far as I'm concerned, you are one of the most positive and helpful contributors to this forum.
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Old 01-09-2005, 05:43 AM   #8
Dennis and Carol
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Just my observation from the peanut gallery. I wondered why some members of MOC had such good luck dealing with Keystone/Montana and others did not. In my earlier life, 30 years dealing with the public in "Customer Service" I reflected on how I reacted in various situations. I came to the conclusion that I was just a mirror and reflected back how I was approached in the first place. Sometimes I would go the extra mile or three and other times I would start out that way but somewhere along the line my patience would run out and I would draw a line in the sand. This may be the reason that some have good and some have bad luck. My Daddy told me a long time ago, "It is all in the presentation". Just my 2 cents.
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Old 01-09-2005, 10:04 AM   #9
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I guess the sad part is that after all this time the thing is still going back to the dealer for repairs. As good or as bad as that might be, waiting days or weeks for parts / repairs rate right up there on the list of fun things to do like dental surgury without anesthetic.

Hopefully Steve, the end is in sight for you.
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Old 01-09-2005, 12:08 PM   #10
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Gruffy.I concur with your findings,Montana has not been out long enough to ensure it will last a period of time,but;they continued to use inferior alko axles until this year,they knew what they were getting, they had to spec the axles.Frame problems to many to mention, shackle and hanger problems, now I admit;until recently I never went under the unit to check for the so-called guts parts,now I do and the so-called high quality builders have never used alko and their shackles are not chinese made with nylon bushings.Heck ,we just checked an ameri-camp, supposedly lower on the tree than montana and they use dexter never-lube, mor-ryde with brass bushings that have grease fittings.This is where I personally think keystone has dropped the ball, more money put into tthe fancy looks of the unit and all the nice layouts,but skimped on the so-called guts and they have to step up to the plate to fix guts items when imo they should have installed guts parts or at least spec'd a higher quality part. For this I think we all we pay in the future.This is just imo but I have been under units lately checking guts parts and keystone is at or near the bottom of the totem pole here.
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Old 01-10-2005, 04:03 PM   #11
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Padre, thanks for the nice words. I was not referring to your post.

I think Keystone is like most any manufacturer. They spec for what they think is required and if the supplier provides a product that doesn't hold up, then that needs to be addressed, such as in switching to different axles and with fixing the frame problems of the early Montanas well after the warranty expired and even for second and third owners, at no cost to the owner. If they inadequately spec'd the part, then that's Keystone's problem and they need to fix it. From what I've seen, they do address those things when it becomes apparent the problem is a trend and not an isolated incident.

For example, I called a highly placed person in the Montana division about the shackles. They are aware of the bushing problem and are addressing (or perhaps have addressed) that. They were not aware of the holes elongating in the hangers and said that would not be acceptable performance. I had mentioned this seems to be a fairly common problem. At their request I just last week forwarded pictures to them of those posted by other members in this forum. I have not removed the shackles on ours but can see where the bolts used to be compared to where they are now and we definitely have some wear. We plan to stop by the factory service center in May to have this looked at.

So, I feel at this point they are interested in hearing these things and I also agree with Carol that presentation is important. Just my nickel and certainly not necessarily the opinion of others.

I realize I'm coming off as defending Keystone but I'm just trying to present my view from my experience with them. They're certainly not perfect but at least they seem to be trying to improve the weaknesses and that's more than I can say for some of the other mfrs we've dealt with. Again, just my opinion and not saying anyone else is wrong.
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Old 01-10-2005, 04:17 PM   #12
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Steve, once again your friendly voice and positive approach to our common love of RVing adds just the right note this this discussion. I just hope that some of our friends who are struggling with issues that have not been resolved will be encouraged by our support and that they will get the appropriate response from their dealers and/or the manufacturer.
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Old 01-11-2005, 03:22 AM   #13
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This has been a most interesting thread. I too spent much of my former live in customer service, and I can tell you that I was a mirror of the customer, hard not to be. Those who approached a problem with an attitude of "what can we do together to fix the problem" would get a different response than those who came across with only negativity, I'm sorry to say.

We've had our 2980 less than a month and it's already in the shop for what I would consider a major repair, the landing gear falling apart. However, our dealer, and specifically our service rep, are doing their best to get it resolved quickly. Should it have happened, no, but it did so now we deal with it and move on. It's been said any number of times in various threads that no stick-built house could ever take the "abuse" that a 5er or TT takes and last as well, and I believe it. These units get used, so there will be some problems. I know that doesn't cover the issue of faults from the factory.

Part of me is the antsy little boy who can't wait to get his new toy fixed and start playing with it again, and part is the (hopefully!) more mature adult that accepts things for the way they are and deals with it. I think we bought a good product overall, certainly more value than we saw in other brands. I would still encourage everyone to tell their experiences because it helps us all, but try to keep it in a positive vein. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to share with the rest of us.
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Old 01-11-2005, 10:08 AM   #14
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Bill -

I agree, especially with the part about being like a little boy. I already told my wife that I have no intention of ever growing up. After being married over thirty years, I think she already knew. Many of us only get to enjoy our units during the non-frozen months. Something about winter climes that the park owners head south in their units. I don't understand. I'm counting down until April 1 when we can get back to our Montana. And yes, I have some minor things to fix on our new Montana. The fantastic vent broke right as we were putting it into storage. The people at Fantastic Vent were great about air shipping the parts and doing anything they could to help. Our dealer is working with Dometic on the dreaded remote control Heating and A/C. It seems that the sensor may have beeen mounted incorrectly, as one possiblity. Need to put in our new Qwest stereo. And our closet bifold door didn't shut right. I will say, though, that I had a lot more issues with our house when we went through than we did on the Montana. And, when you consider the price differential, the Montana had a lot less defects per dollar spent. I would prefer that I not have any issues, but my dealer has worked very well to make us happy.
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Old 01-11-2005, 03:22 PM   #15
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Thanks everyone for a fine discussion! Have been following it with interest.

Hope you are all well and warm and dry and not floating away somewhere. The weather has been frightful. We have had 3 snowstorms in the last, oh, 10 days, give or take, over 15 inches of snow. BLAH.
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Old 01-12-2005, 12:45 PM   #16
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Carol, it was in the 77 today here in Savannah! I had on a long sleeved shirt plus a t-shirt (it IS January, after all!) but that was way too warm. Going to have to dig out the short sleeves. But, then, a cold spell is coming and the high SAturday is to be only 57 with a low of 39. You'd think a major snowstorm was coming the way they carry on.
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Old 01-12-2005, 01:52 PM   #17
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Yea, I know Steve, got to love the southerners, they see a snow flake they either panic or dance in the streets! Or, on a good day, maybe do both??

We are now in the throws of serious fog, temps near 50, serious snow melt and thunderstorms, what an interesting mix. (NOT!)

Between the weather and some health issues, our departure is on hold. Still hope to get out of here and to Texas, but my alternative plans are wait a while and then head your way, I could sure use a dose of Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia! I do believe I am homesick!

Enjoy the great weather! Enjoy Savannah, don't miss Charleston and be sure to visit at least one of the plantations. They are all different and all wonderful!

Carol
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Old 01-12-2005, 04:02 PM   #18
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It's 61 degrees in Chicago, raining, thundering and lightening and by Friday night it should be -5 deg F. This winter's weather has been a real rollercoaster.
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Old 01-16-2005, 01:51 PM   #19
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Well, the cold front is here. Tonight it's to reach down to 32 on the mainland and tomorrow night 27. Then back to 40's for the low. One of the park people told me it will be 5 to 10 degrees warmer here than those 32 and 27 temperatures. Today was 49 for a high. If that's what a bad winter means here, I can handle it!
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