Anderson hitch memo from Keystone

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by mhs4771

I've said it before and will repeat myself:
I have a hard time understanding going out and buying the biggest heaviest fifthwheel you can and then look for the lightest weight hitch you can find.

I'm sure glad I didn't save all that weight by going to aluminum rims!!!
hmmm, wait a minute...

Brad

[dadnjesse]

Originally Posted by kowbra

I'm sure glad I didn't save all that weight by going to aluminum rims!!!
hmmm, wait a minute...

Brad

Tractor trailers use aluminum wheels.

[mlh]

Are we comparing apples to oranges?
Lynwood

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by mlh

Are we comparing apples to oranges?
Lynwood

Yes, aluminum to steel...

There may be a lot of reasons why someone may not use the AUH, and certainly this thread is a big one - warranty complications.

But, to those who say the AUH is made of aluminum so it's too light thus it cannot possibly be strong enough? I will have to respectfully disagree. There is nothing inherently inferior about aluminum, and it is an important metal in all sorts of critical and long lasting structures.

Again I find it amazing how much debate there is about this hitch. Other hitches fail, including very heavy steel hitches - come right apart in pieces, or jaws that completely fail. But I haven't seen a bunch of threads on why no one would want to buy a big heavy steel hitch because they fail... but somehow it's easy to criticize this lightweight looking AUH and say it will never work. Except thousands of people have successfully used them to tow millions of miles...

Brad

[dieselguy]

I'm thinking we've about beat this horse to death. I'm also seeing a parallel ... 6 gals out of tens of thousands get blood clots from the Johnson and Johnson vaccine so it's distribution in the US is at "parade rest". Maybe a dozen documented Andersen failures out of thousands sold and still being sold so now it's an across the board death trap. I understand that when something actually happens to you it hits harder, but put weight on the percentages, pick your fights, live life.

[firestation12]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Another fine Andersen hitch bit the dust.. Pic was taken Friday April 2, 2021 at Nellis AFB FAM CAMP

The picture of the Andersen hitch failure seems strange, in that there is no downward bending of the legs which is what I would expect if it failed under a load.

[mlh]

Thanks Brad.
I know a little about aluminum. I buy thousands of pounds of aluminum a year along with that much steel, stainless steel and brass. It’s not that aluminum isn’t strong enough it’s in the design. His hitch fails in the legs. It will hold up thousands of pounds pressing down but that isn’t the stress campers put on a hitch when in a panic situation like a wreck. Look at the pictures you can find on the internet and see for your self where they fail. There are places aluminum works great and it would here with a different design. He has this design because it is cheap to make with little material. A great design from his standpoint.
Lynwood

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by mlh

Thanks Brad.
I know a little about aluminum. I buy thousands of pounds of aluminum a year along with that much steel, stainless steel and brass. It’s not that aluminum isn’t strong enough it’s in the design. His hitch fails in the legs. It will hold up thousands of pounds pressing down but that isn’t the stress campers put on a hitch when in a panic situation like a wreck. Look at the pictures you can find on the internet and see for your self where they fail. There are places aluminum works great and it would here with a different design. He has this design because it is cheap to make with little material. A great design from his standpoint.
Lynwood

You likely know more about the strengths and weaknesses of the design than I do.
But, purely on the pictures I've seen where tubes have kinked and collapsed, I would expect a thicker wall aluminum tubing to be more resistant to kinking and bending than a thinner wall steel tubing. Would you agree?

To be clear, I am not commenting on the design, but rather that aluminum is not inherently deficient; which is the argument that is often presented.

Brad

[mlh]

Brad. I most certainly would agree. Thicker wall aluminum would be better. But from his standpoint it would add cost and make the hitch harder to make. Not good for Andersen but we wouldn’t be having this discussion which would be really good for his bottom line. One thing I have learned from being in business for 40 years is to not look at the bottom line. Make the best product you can and you wont need to look at the bottom line.
Lynwood

[Dave W]

The AUH is, in my opinion, deficient in strength, There are two significant forces here that thin wall aluminum tubing doesn't handle well - compressive stress and tensile stress. When towing with that AUH, you have both types of stresses. The front bars are in tensile and the rear are in compressive. Make a stop, and those stresses reverse. Manke an emergency stop and those stresses increase several times. Make a turn, either forward or reverse and the legs take on a different set of stresses. I have no idea how Andersen calculated a safety margin, one size fits all, but just the way those legs are configured in the assembly tells me that while each individual one of them may have a good load carrying ability, the angles are incorrect for best strength . If there were 4 more equally spaced legs between each of the existing, you would increase the strength consideranly. Then, add in what I noted earlier about notch sensitivity.



Nope, not a hitch that I would use for anything in the 10K and heavier range. Below 10K, probably OK. Comparison with an airplane and their strength is not the same as the aluminums are differennt and the airplane has been designed by actual engineers, not a backyard entrepreneur



It's most likely proprietary, but I sure would like to see the calculations and tests, not advertising agency hoopla garbage on these hitches

[dieselguy]

The following assumes most all know how "The Game" is played out with big corporations. First, go to the LCI website and look up all the RV and Marine companies under the LCI umbrella. Say LCI wanted Andersen under that umbrella like they have Curt and Andersen didn't want to play ... what better answer to persuade a failed conquest than "The Memo"?
Now I get you guys with the mega trailers worrying about GVWR and frame warranty being between a rock and a hard place, but a goodly percentage of us fall outside that category. I recently ordered an Andersen base to fit the puck system on my new to me 17 F350 because the Demco adaptor I ordered to use my steel rail mount Andersen from my old truck just plain didn't work out. Shopping around for a good deal ... several vendors were either out of Andersen hitches or in very short supply ... I went for a better deal and had to wait near 3 weeks to get it. Apparently enough RV'ers are still buying them that Andersen can't keep up at their manufacturing facility in Idaho. Maybe it'll take a while for "The Memo" to take effect as planned.

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by mlh

Brad. I most certainly would agree. Thicker wall aluminum would be better. But from his standpoint it would add cost and make the hitch harder to make. Not good for Andersen but we wouldn’t be having this discussion which would be really good for his bottom line. One thing I have learned from being in business for 40 years is to not look at the bottom line. Make the best product you can and you wont need to look at the bottom line.
Lynwood

Ya Lynwood, I think you run your business the way it should be run.
Often you see others who start out like that but then they sell out or take on outside investors and the "money folks" can sometimes change things a lot. I'm not sure if Anderson has outside money, but if so it might explain some things. We've turned down money in our business several times over the years, because of the fear of exactly that.

BTW, FWIW, when I bought my AUH years ago I looked at the steel and the aluminum one before I decided. The aluminum tubing was way thicker gauge than the steel and I decided to spend the extra for the aluminum; not because I could save 15lbs or whatever it was, but because I actually thought it was the stronger design.

Brad

[Montana Man]

Originally Posted by firestation12

The picture of the Andersen hitch failure seems strange, in that there is no downward bending of the legs which is what I would expect if it failed under a load.

I wouldn't expect a failure from downward force. These hitches would probably make good jack stands. My concern is the lateral force of a 15k pound trailer and 8500lb truck moving in different directions.

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by Dave W

The AUH is, in my opinion, deficient in strength, There are two significant forces here that thin wall aluminum tubing doesn't handle well - compressive stress and tensile stress. When towing with that AUH, you have both types of stresses. The front bars are in tensile and the rear are in compressive. Make a stop, and those stresses reverse. Manke an emergency stop and those stresses increase several times. Make a turn, either forward or reverse and the legs take on a different set of stresses. I have no idea how Andersen calculated a safety margin, one size fits all, but just the way those legs are configured in the assembly tells me that while each individual one of them may have a good load carrying ability, the angles are incorrect for best strength . If there were 4 more equally spaced legs between each of the existing, you would increase the strength consideranly. Then, add in what I noted earlier about notch sensitivity.

Nope, not a hitch that I would use for anything in the 10K and heavier range. Below 10K, probably OK. Comparison with an airplane and their strength is not the same as the aluminums are differennt and the airplane has been designed by actual engineers, not a backyard entrepreneur

It's most likely proprietary, but I sure would like to see the calculations and tests, not advertising agency hoopla garbage on these hitches

Dave, I mostly agree with what you say, but really that knife cuts both ways.

If someone would argue that the design is inherently flawed, I would ask for calculations and tests to support those theories. So far, across many forums over many years, no one has provided any concrete data to suggest the design is inherently flawed.

All that is offered is that there have been failures, and a lot of conjecture on top. Saying it's too light, or that aluminum is not strong enough, or the thickness of the tubing is too light or of uneven length, or the welds are not notched, etc, etc. All good "theories", but again not concrete data supported by proper engineering testing.... indeed the knife cuts both ways...

This is interesting, from last September...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA8K35FwTv0

All human designed things seem to eventually fail...

Brad

[BB_TX]

Interestingly, the failure shown in the picture on page 4 is not the same type failure I have seen in previous pictures. Other pictures have typically shown bent tubes that caused/allowed the hitch to collapse. But the picture on page 4 appears to show the angled brace piece near the top of the hitch broken in half, leaving half of it attached to the still upright section. And the other half attached to the upside down section. And the tubes broken off at the welds without bending the tubes. That seems a really odd failure mode.

[mlh]

We can’t prove this design is flawed. We don’t have the equipment or computer programs or the blueprints. It’s Andersen’s place to prove the hitch is strong enough. Why not provide the test data? I think I know why he like others doesn’t have it. B&W designed their hitch three times stronger than they thought it needed to be.
When I started making power measures I had a scientific test run to prove my measure was as accurate as the more expensive competitors. I had a scientific guy run 5000 charges through 3 measures each. If Andersen hitch is as strong as he claims he could, would have it tested. Oh they don’t make power measures now.
Lynwood

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by mlh

We can’t prove this design is flawed. We don’t have the equipment or computer programs or the blueprints. It’s Andersen’s place to prove the hitch is strong enough. Why not provide the test data? I think I know why he like others doesn’t have it. B&W designed their hitch three times stronger than they thought it needed to be.
When I started making power measures I had a scientific test run to prove my measure was as accurate as the more expensive competitors. I had a scientific guy run 5000 charges through 3 measures each. If Andersen hitch is as strong as he claims he could, would have it tested. Oh they don’t make power measures now.
Lynwood

At the risk of beating the horse even more... there are a lot of reasons why a manufacturer does not release testing data, none of which necessarily has anything to do with flawed or inferior design or build.
I'm not saying it proves Anderson did a good job here, but conversely it doesn't prove they did a poor job either.

Brad

[432bartman]

Originally Posted by kowbra

Dave, I mostly agree with what you say, but really that knife cuts both ways.

If someone would argue that the design is inherently flawed, I would ask for calculations and tests to support those theories. So far, across many forums over many years, no one has provided any concrete data to suggest the design is inherently flawed.

All that is offered is that there have been failures, and a lot of conjecture on top. Saying it's too light, or that aluminum is not strong enough, or the thickness of the tubing is too light or of uneven length, or the welds are not notched, etc, etc. All good "theories", but again not concrete data supported by proper engineering testing.... indeed the knife cuts both ways...

This is interesting, from last September...

All human designed things seem to eventually fail...

Brad

Interesting video. 40,000 lb. rated steel hitch towing about half that weight, and it was a single weld that failed. Glad nobody got hurt and it was at slow speeds. Looked like a gorgeous trailer and truck.

[mlh]

Brad if you were going to be in an accident, say someone pulled out in front of you traveling 50 mph which would you rather have in the bed of your truck, an Andersen or a B&W? I think I know the answer to that. None of us plan on having a wreck but some of us is going to.
Lynwood

[BB_TX]

There is a lot of engineering that goes into something as simple looking as an Andersen hitch. I would have to assume they had mechanical engineers well versed in force vectors, moment of force, strength of materials, etc to thoroughly engineer and initially test it before making it publicly available. The hard part then comes in adequate testing for the millions of miles and road conditions those hitches would be subjected to. Not a simple matter of sitting down in your shop and designing and building on the fly.