Very disappointed - Montana Owners Club

Ozz · 07-22-2006, 01:19 PM

I just came in from working under our new Monty all day.
I pulled the black flexible plastic covering up the bottom area, I guess the underbelly area is heated but I have not seen a heat duct yet, I haven't been all the way back so far, but there are gaps everywhere. The worst part I found is that the wires, hydraulic lines, and plastic lines for water, are just sitting on top of sharp edges everywhere. I spent hours wire tying, and supporting the lines and wires.
Hiway travel, vibration and movement on the road would eventually saw through, causing a dead short, hydraulic and water line rupture. Very sad workmanship.
Yes, I know that time is money when assembling the units, I would gladly pay a little extra if that is what it took, it would be prudent for the engineers to think about this a little.
I plan on keeping mine for a very long time, I need the reliability.
I installed all but, the fresh water sensors for my Vena LCD tank monitoring system, Black and Grey, the monitor also has a 12 volt readout, really nice. It's "The Cat's Meow!"
I have to calibrate the tanks after I get the fresh water sensor installed. It only has one Grey water readout, so I will install an A-B switch for Two Grey water tanks.
I hope they improve on the workmanship under there.

Ozz

richfaa · 07-22-2006, 04:23 PM

Have you pulled the white panel in the drivers side.. side compartment yet.The one where the water pump is..Be prepared and grab your tie wraps and gorilla tape. I guess the philosophy is if you cant see it ..it must be OK. We did pay close attention to the wireing in the underbelly when at the factory last year because there was a fire or two on the forum and they WERE insulating the holes in the frame where the wires ran..Tell me they still do that??? I used a entire roll of Gorilla tape sealing the underbelly in my 3400 and when helping Dave with his PDI Thursday the were even bigger gaps in his underbelly..You could see the artic package insulation.Hope you are going to the fall rally..The factory tour should be interesting.I am thinking of submitting a bill for all the clean up work I am doing...

Ozz · 07-22-2006, 04:33 PM

Rich,
Yes, I pulled that when I worked on my water pump, like you said, wire ties, and tape. I used some self stick rubber pad around the water tubing. It is worse under the belly. By the way, I bought the Gorilla tape after reading about you using it to secure the video cable, I love it, I generally use some good tape I bought at Graingers, but not as good or sticky as this stuff!
No, the wires are just strung anywhere willy nilly, horrible...
ozz

Wrenchtraveller · 07-22-2006, 05:51 PM

I was hoping I wouldn't have to drop my under belly panels but after hearing this, I will.
Everywhere else I have gone into, the clean up is poor and the work is untidy but this has been the caes in every RV I have ever owned so I have come to expect it.

Ozz · 07-23-2006, 02:15 AM

Don,
Besides much sawdust, there were 4 wood circle plugs, screws, plastic bits, rocks-you name it that fell out.
I got something in my eye from all the crap falling out. The wire routing was the worst.

The Wind · 07-23-2006, 03:12 AM

Ozz, I was wondering how hard it is to drop the black "under belly" on the RV. Does it take two people or just one? Will anything fall down except the saw dust and construction scraps? I too would like to see how the underside looks like. Maybe make sure that wires are not rubbing on metal, etc.

richfaa · 07-23-2006, 04:30 AM

It is not hard to drop just a lot of work and a lot of under the camper time.I would suggest you do it when you are in a really good mood because the mood will go downhill when you see what is under there. Mine was not all that bad I guess it dependes on the skilled craftsmen that worked on your unit that particular day/ When at the factory the ones we saw looked pretty good.Our Terry and Coachman before that were no better by the way.Like OZZ we are going over this one because we will be doing a lot more on the road time and have learned much from previous ownership and selling these things about Rv quality..As for things falling out on you..you never know..at the rate that line moves there may be the remains of one of those skilled craftsman sealed up in there...

Ozz · 07-23-2006, 05:34 AM

Rich said it well, (I'm glad all the craftsmen made it home on my build days)
No, I would suggest goggles, I am still suffering from whatever fell into my eye, it's better now.
I had to cut the Washer's 1 1/4" drain line, as they piped up the drains after the bottom was installed, but two rubber band aid couplers, or two glue type couplings will fix that when I put it back together.
Mine did not have the cold weather extra insulation, so I can't speak to that.
I would suggest some large cardboard pieces to slide around on, that made it much better, I used a cordless drill with a 3/8 magnetic chuck bit, get a 3/8" nut driver for the few screws that are under the shackles and such.
I used an empty Kleenex box to put the screws in, as I wanted to account for each and every one. My luck would be the one I dropped and didn't find, would end up in a tire.
Have the wire ties ready, plus some rubber to wrap around hydraulic hoses and water lines to help with the abrasion factor. You will find many places that need your attention.
It is a Royal pain in the keester, but worth it.
I am planning on running my rear camera video cable under there, plus the cables for my satellite dish mounted on the roof; down through the cabinets, then under the unit, together with the slide cables so it will not bind up.
I will run a 120 volt line cable from the front battery storage where my inverter is, to the breaker panel so I can interface with the transfer switch I am planning on installing.
I swear this will be the last RV I overhaul, it took Two hard working month's to do the same type Mods to our '94 30' Keystone Sprinter TT.
I'm getting too old for this!!
Good luck,
Ozz

richfaa · 07-23-2006, 06:30 AM

Found another workmanship issue.We noticed that a small groove was forming on the underside of the black stuff on the bedroom slide (3400 ) front facing side.We lifted the bed, took off the plywood covering the hydraulics and looked around..We noted the bed ran back and forth on wheels and the one on the front side of the bed was laying on the carpet..never installed..My guess is that craftsman # 1 in charge of drilling all the holes missed it..you know how assembly lines can be..Craftsman # 2 in charge of installing the wheel said..not my yob..and laid it aside.so much washing it down so I am on break..

tmarshall · 07-25-2006, 08:42 AM

I am getting ready to drop my underbelly panels and it looks like the black panels will come off easy. I can see the astro foil insulation in the underbelly through gaps and I am wondering if it is one piece or if it is segmented like the black panels. If it is one piece, how did you work around the astrofoil while working in the underbelly? Does it sag enough to be able to work around it or did you have to cut it? I really don't want to cut the insulation. I am going to put foam tube insulation around all my water lines in the underbelly (2004 3670RL) and seal the belly up so there are no gaps. Any suggestions insulating the water lines?

richfaa · 07-25-2006, 09:12 AM

After you are done with the underbelly work try sealing the gap all the way around with Gorilla tape.It is real sticky and is what many Rv dealer use to repair tears in the underbelly.As for the silver insulation..who knows..Might be in one piece or not.At the factory we saw them rolling it out in one strip..mine was not???

Ozz · 07-25-2006, 10:07 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by tmarshall

I am getting ready to drop my underbelly panels and it looks like the black panels will come off easy. I can see the astro foil insulation in the underbelly through gaps and I am wondering if it is one piece or if it is segmented like the black panels. If it is one piece, how did you work around the astrofoil while working in the underbelly? Does it sag enough to be able to work around it or did you have to cut it? I really don't want to cut the insulation. I am going to put foam tube insulation around all my water lines in the underbelly (2004 3670RL) and seal the belly up so there are no gaps. Any suggestions insulating the water lines?

The foil insulation on mine was taped down the middle lengthwise, I just cut it, I had to cut my washer drain line, as they installed the Black panel, then piped the 90 and downstream piping. I cut it and will use a cupling or band aid to assemble it.
I will be adding insulation. I will use the black split foam tube to cover the lines, then add insulation, the Pink non-itch that is wrapped in plastic bags. I think I will support it within the cross members so no weight will be on the bottom plastic.
This is not a pleasant job, but when done and traveling, I'll feel much, much better knowing my electrical, hydraulic and water lines are not rubbing holes in them as we travel.
Ozz

Ozzie · 07-29-2006, 05:14 PM

Hey Ozz...I was reading in another thread about your Artic Package.
Somebody replied in that thread that the Artic Package has a 2" vent to the belly to keep the pipes from freezing.

Curious minds want to know...what did you see down there when you had it opened up?
Can you see any way to improve things other than adding insulation?
Is there an air channel betwen the plumbing and insulation that you could pump warm air through for the pipes?
Heat plates on the tanks, etc?

Ozz · 07-30-2006, 02:06 AM

Ozzie,
If you have seen any RV trailer, or 5th wheel without insulation, or a bottom, that is what it looks like with the exception of a thin sheet of 'Bubble wrap' with flexible black plastic on the bottom.
They say it works and keeps pipes from freezing, but it's pretty basic stuff. No tank heaters, no fiberglass, as a matter of fact, the outboard; from the frame out, doesn't have insulation, or 'bubble wrap' either side. It has gaps all around so it's not heated, or protected.
I will stuff it full of that Pink no itchy plastic wrapped insulation, and seal all the cracks and holes with Foam insulation out of the can.
It would be a good idea to tie up wires, cables, & plastic water lines dangling and rubbing on sharp edges when opened up.
I had to remove mine to install my Vena LCD tank monitoring system, as well as room to fish all my wires, backup camera cable and Sat. cables.
I'll post another thread and a picture of the tank monitor, it's Cool Beans!
See ya.
Ozz

simonsrf · 07-30-2006, 05:39 AM

Ozz,
Can one person manage taking the underbelly off by himself, and also get it back on. I do want to make those modifications, but worry about doing it by myself.

Thanks,

Robbie

Ozz · 07-30-2006, 05:58 AM

Robbie,
Yes, I took my panels off, the gas line holds the left side of the plastic pretty tight, assembling the panels would be better with two people I would think, I still have mine off. You should be OK by yourself.
Ozz

lightningjack11 · 07-30-2006, 06:03 AM

I took about three panels off to inspect my frame in the area of the wheels. It was a pain but it can be accomplished by an individual. That was before the MOC and framing was an important issue for the first Montanas. I do not have the Artic stuff but I was very impressed with what I saw. Everything looked so clean and professionally done. That was before I knew about the wiring issues.

simonsrf · 07-30-2006, 06:36 AM

Ozz & Tom,

Ok, thanks, guess there is one more thing I need to put on my list once I start fulltiming on October 1st. I may get back in touch with you for more support...thanks for your help....it all helps.

Robbie

sreigle · 07-30-2006, 06:25 PM

Ozz, is yours a 2007? While at the factory tour I saw how the water lines are routed and they're in a channel of their own inside the floor assembly. Were the water lines laying on sharp edges before and after that channel or within the channel?

There's a 2 inch duct from the furnace into the belly. It does a very good job of keeping it warm in there. I sealed a number of the openings in the belly but am not planning to seal it tight. After all, if the air in the belly has nowhere to escape then not much warm air is going to come in from that duct. Sealed the way we are without sealing everything in the belly we can get down to single digits before freezing. The 2007's supposedly can get to zero. On our new one I will check to see if I need to do some sealing but I'm not expecting to do very much. I do want to check out the wiring, though.

Ozz · 07-31-2006, 01:35 AM

The clean out water line was curled around under there rubbing in about 3 or 4 places, hydraulic lines for the slides as well as wiring everywhere, no channel at the front and middle that I saw.
I haven't made it to the rear Two panels yet. It would be very hard to seal it that tight, I do agree that it can't be sealed to that degree. The outboard area is not insulated or being covered by the heating ducting, it is outside of the frame on both sides.
Yes, it's a '07
Take care, Ozz

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