More weight information - Page 3 - Montana Owners Club

dsprik · 01-27-2006, 05:24 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by carlson

I think if you look at the rating for the axles on a 2005 3400RL they are 8,000 lbs.
So 8 pllus 8 give you 16,000 lbs axles rating.
Then look at the rating of your tires (5042 lbs) at proper inflation of 80 psi
5042 times 4 tires is a total of 20,168 lbs.
Then look at the rating of your tow vehicle
Chevy HD2500 capacity of 15,600 lbs for 5th wheel and with a total of 22,000 lbs.
So therefore if I look at my total trailer weight and the tongue weight, I came out at 19% of my weigfht is on the 5th wheel hitch.
So from all the data I have read you should be somewhere 18 to 20% tongue weight.
I am ok.
And to the point of going to double pane windows adding 600lbs to the coach weight I DON'T THINK SO!!!
And to Gel Coat weight added of 600 lbs, if you look at the square footage area on the outside of the coach and say with window and doors remove from the square footage, I would say to get 600 lbs by adding Gel Coat it would have to add atleast 1 pound per square foot, I DON"T THINK SO!!!
Also if you look at the weight of adding doule pane glass at said 600lbs, 600 lbs is 5% of the total weight of the coachm
Do you know what the frame weights, what does the plywood on the floor weight, what do the appliance weight, what do the slide mechanics weight.
That is why I question the spoken weight of 600 lbs each as questionable,
Just my thoughts!!!

I tend to agree... so where do we get accurate info on these weights, then. SOMEONE has to have them...

The problem is your can't order you unit w/ the options you think you might want, then take it to the scales, then take it back to the dealer and say, "OK, take this Gel Coat off... too heavy... Oh, and I changed my mind on this dual pane glass. That's OK. I'll wait. I have an extra 2 hours anyway..."

Montana Sky · 01-27-2006, 05:29 PM

Dave,
my dob is 3-16-79
Won't be 27 until this upcoming March. Thank goodness~ Somedays I tell you what, I feel 3x's my age. I also must say I am pretty lucky to be part of such a group, the things I have learned here are priceless. I talk with so many folks in the campground throughout the summer and am amazed at how much one can learn from the folks who have gone before you. I may still hold the title of "Youngest member" as I was told in an email the other day, but I place myself at the top of the list for "Luckiest member".

dsprik · 01-27-2006, 05:38 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Montana Sky

...Somedays I tell you what, I feel 3x's my age...

OMG! I'm glad I can't say that! Let's see... 3 x 53 = 159??? Oh wait... I guess some days I DO feel like that...

I think we're all lucky to have each other on this forum... JMHO!

snfexpress · 01-27-2006, 06:26 PM

Dave,

I agree with you that it is our responsibility to make sure we're not over the gross weight, but....

It is the responsibility of the manufacturer and the representatives of the manufacturer to tell us what the real numbers are. Do we go by the website, or do we go by the brochure handed to us (which says the coach is lighter than it really is)? I was specifically told, and referred to the brochure, that the weight was 11,380 pounds plus 600 pounds for the high gloss option - as per the brochure. I was also told the length was 37' 1", as per the brochure, but the website says 37' 9". Which source of information is correct?

I know that I am new to this lifestyle, but I tend to be careful about how I approach this new venture. I don't want problems, and since I am new, I relied on the manufacturer's representative to inform me as to what I can and cannot do. This is where I am having a problem. Actually, this forum has been WAY more informative and educational - thanks!

Someone from Keystone (who is knowledgeable) needs to definitively tell us what our coach weighs, with the options we have selected.

I don't plan on having 4 season's clothing, but I do expect to able to carry those things that will be necessary and lifestyle compatible: full systems capacity (including water and propane), a generator (Honda 3000i), computer, internet satellite, television satellite, autoformer, surge suppressor, basic tool box, books, dishes, DVD's, clothes for a couple of weeks, stabilizer jacks, roto-chocks, 2x4's for leveling, bbq, emergency collapsible luggage for funerals and/or weddings, dog food, wine and liquor (we love our cocktails - and you are always welcome, Dave and other MOC'ers), meds and first aid kit, pictures of our family, outdoor rugs and chairs, and stuffs we buy for us and the grandchildren (we have 3 already!).

Yes, I know I'm anal retentive, but that's who I am...I'm sure I've forgotten something!

I am new, so maybe I shouldn't speak up, but I do have a problem with stated specifications at time of sale (backed up by written materials by the manufacturer), and post-sale specifications learned from viewing the manufacturer's website. I don't fully understand all of the weights: axle, hitch, etc., but am trying to learn as fast as I can - at least by March, when we get our TV.

Just so I am clear, I am NOT lambasting anyone on this forum. If it were not for this forum, I would by IGNORANT! Because of this forum, I have learned so much!

My dream is to go full-time in a couple of years when I can turn my business over to someone else. At this time, I'll probably add even more weight.

Thanks for all the input and advice,

Michael

Wrenchtraveller · 01-27-2006, 09:24 PM

This weight issue has always been around with all RV makes and pickup brands. The vast majority of slide in campers are overweight and Ford has made 3/4 ton models that you could overload with your four fattest aunts in the cab and the box absolutely empty but thanks to lawyers we live in a different world now and what you could do in the past now involves a higher risk of legal hassle.

Even though I own the smallest Montana model available, if my truck was an older F350 SRW, I would be over my GVWR. That is one of the reasons I went to the 05 F350 SRW. It has an 11200 lb GVWR and the truck empty with me in it weighs 7500 lbs so my legal payload is 3700 but subtract a 2200 pound pin weight and that only leaves 1500 pounds for my auxilary gas tank, tools, passengers, etc.
I will probably have a few hundred pounds to spare. My 04 F350 with only a 9900 lb GVWR would be overloaded by quite a bit.
Yet I see many people hauling much larger Montana models with 3/4 ton trucks. They are probably over their GVWRs by quite a bit but when you go shopping for a big Montana the saleman will never tell you that legally, you need a 1 ton dually to haul that puppy. No, you will never hear that because that might cost them a sale, yet it is the absolute truth.

Remember, if you don't like the message, don't shoot the messenger but I guess what I am trying to say is we probably should be just as concerned about overloading our TVs as we are our Coaches.

richfaa · 01-27-2006, 10:13 PM

What this question and the replies on this thread have revealed is that we, the customer the, the user and the ones who would suffer as a result of overloading have no clue as to what the REAL weights of our campers or options are other than going to the scales and weighing them AFTER they are in our driveway.Call me unreasonable but I think we should have those facts available BEFORE we order or purchase. I have enough information to know that we can not order all the options we would like. We are up early again this AM..Got a all day bus charter(ski trip) today.Every little bit helps to pay for the new 3400.

Wrenchtraveller · 01-28-2006, 02:18 AM

Rich, Do you as a driver know your bus's legal GVWR and would you be able to overload that bus if you were doing a weight watcher's road trip? Not trying to be smart, I am just curious and my feelings are with a tag axle the big coaches probably have lot's of extra LEGAL payload.

Also, my above post is about legal payloads and I am sure our RVs and TVs have built in safety margins but now that lawyers and insurance companies are stating to enforce this legal payload issue, it is something we all have to be more aware of.

Go to Keystone's web site and they have specs from 2001 to 2006 and in my model the payloads have dropped quite a bit. The 05 payload is 3000 lb for a 2955RL and the payload for an 06 2955RL is only 1980 lb. So what changed? I think it is just Keystone trying to bring their specs a little closer to reality and I am going to weigh my unit before and after I load up this April and I sure hope I have at least a 1500 lb payload and still be under my trucks Gross Combined Weight Rating of 21000 pounds. I guess I have to start saving for a Freightliner if I want to go to a larger fifth wheel.

Montana_4397 · 01-28-2006, 03:16 AM

I believe Carlson stated that you had 8000 Pound axles. I don't believe that is correct. Montana does not publish their axle ratings or GVWR, but on the 3400RL the dry weitht is listed at 11650 and if you add in their published Carrying Capacity of 2325, you have a GVWR or 13975. Now subtract the pin weitht of 1975 you have 12,000 pounds left. That works on all models. This sure looks like two 6,000 pound axles. I believe they put 8 lug hubs and wheels to look stronger. Now, most have said that their pin weignt went up by around 400 pounds. This is good in that it is not on your axles. I have read on a forum of an owner taking their unit back to the factory for repairs and the first thing they did was weigh the unit to see if it was overloaded. I honestly don't remember if it was Keyston, Forrest River or some other manufacturer.

I agree with Dave to the point it is our responsibility not to overload. I looked at these weights early on, and some of you might remember that I posted a concern. I tried to upgrade to a heavier set of axles and could not.

I solved that problem by going elsewhere. I have ordered a Cardinal 34QS. It is almost identical to the Montana 3400RL in floorplan design. I found some things nicer in the Montana and some things nicer in the Cardinal, but the real positive is that it comes with 7000 pound axles. Everything in RVs is a compromise. We make our choices and live with the consequences. I'm not putting Montanas down by any means. I'm just saying that if you don't like what Keystone is doing, there are choices.

Best Regards, Ted

carlson · 01-28-2006, 04:04 AM

If I remember right, last fall I crawled under the rig and looked at the sticker on the axles and with the model number I believe that they are 8,000 lb axles ratings.
I could be wrong, but I believe they were rated at 8,000 lbs.
When we bought our 5th wheel and loaded it up I don't remember the 5th whell getting any lower to the ground with the weight we put in it. So I believe the springs are properly rated.
Wheels are properly rated.
As to weight. it is the total weight of the coach, say a 3400Rl is 11840 lbs, that is the total weight, it is just that 2000 lbs is the weight that is put onto the tongue when it is hooked to the TV.
Yes there is safety valves put into the engineering of everything out there. A lot of items use a 3 to 1 saftey point. Like hoses they have a working pressure of 150 psi, but a burst pressure of 450 psi.
Just my thoughts.

richfaa · 01-28-2006, 05:06 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Wrenchtraveller

Rich, Do you as a driver know your bus's legal GVWR and would you be able to overload that bus if you were doing a weight watcher's road trip? Not trying to be smart, I am just curious and my feelings are with a tag axle the big coaches probably have lot's of extra LEGAL payload.

Also, my above post is about legal payloads and I am sure our RVs and TVs have built in safety margins but now that lawyers and insurance companies are stating to enforce this legal payload issue, it is something we all have to be more aware of.

Go to Keystone's web site and they have specs from 2001 to 2006 and in my model the payloads have dropped quite a bit. The 05 payload is 3000 lb for a 2955RL and the payload for an 06 2955RL is only 1980 lb. So what changed? I think it is just Keystone trying to bring their specs a little closer to reality and I am going to weigh my unit before and after I load up this April and I sure hope I have at least a 1500 lb payload and still be under my trucks Gross Combined Weight Rating of 21000 pounds. I guess I have to start saving for a Freightliner if I want to go to a larger fifth wheel.

As a matter of fact I do know the gvwr as it is listed on a tag to my left overhead. More important, as any bus driver or big truck driver knows the weight police know your GVWR and if the scale reads TILT you are cited. Lame excuses like //Oh there is a safety margin built in....will not work/If Rv's were subject to the weight laws and and weighed like big trucks..Rv'ers would be seriously light in the wallet..Humm..maybe we should be subject to the weight laws..Might cause the manufactures to POST THE PROPER WEIGHTS..

dsprik · 01-28-2006, 05:08 AM

What kind of structural failures are we looking at as a result of overweight CC? I know that GCVWR overload will cause handling problems, but what if the GCVWR is OK (1 ton dualie, 4500, 5500 tv), but the CC is significantly over weight? What kind of damage will this do? Obviously hard on the springs (and how about the new Mor/Ryde suspension?). I think the tires are rated to take a little extra over the coach's GVWR - Not much maybe - course you can upgrade those. But other than tires/suspension, what specifically is in danger of failure?

dsprik · 01-28-2006, 05:16 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by carlson

Yes there is safety valves put into the engineering of everything out there. A lot of items use a 3 to 1 saftey point. Like hoses they have a working pressure of 150 psi, but a burst pressure of 450 psi.
Just my thoughts.

That would be great, Sven, but I'll bet the Montana/Keystone engineers did not use that rule on their 5vers. However, ALL engineers do provide a % margin of safety. Be nice to know what it is... of course if that was published, everyone's mind set would immediately reset the engineers' weight ratings in their own mind, and THAT would be dangerous.

I would not want to push my weights to where the engineering tests are in the average structural failure range... And you and I know there are some who would try that...

Wrenchtraveller · 01-28-2006, 06:38 AM

On the subjects of weights, I just took my new replacement Mission 235/80 10 ply tire down to a tire shop. This tire is unmounted as my dealer shipped it to me free of charge because my new Montana came with a damaged tire that was leaking.

I can squeeze the inside beads of the tire completely together with very little hand effort and with LT tires you can't even begin to squeeze them together. I can also push a single finger and make a bulge in the sidewalls of this tire, again not possible with truck tires.

I was concerned about this but the tire guy says I am worried about nothing. He says the tire specs rate this tire for 3520 pounds and that is 14080 for all 4 tires and my Montana only has axles rated for 10000 pounds so the tires are fine.

I guess I'll mount this new tire and give these Missions a chance. I was all set to just get LT tires put on but I have a lot of respect for this tire guy and I'll take his advice even though these tires feel like a rag compared to the same rating LT tire.

Wrenchtraveller · 01-28-2006, 07:06 AM

Dave, if you were over your axle ratings by quite a bit you could break a leaf spring but Dexter axles are pretty tough. I have a single axle utility tailer that has a 3500 pound axle rating and I have had 5000 pounds on that axle more times than I would like to admit. This is when I haul gravel and the loader overfills me. The pit I deal with weighs you before and after and I have had the 15 " pickup tires on that utility trailer pretty wide and low.

This is not a good practise and I am going to take smaller loads from now on.

Hemlockusa · 01-28-2006, 07:47 AM

Instead of putting a sticker inside the cabinet door that isn't really right, what would be the big deal for MONTANA KEYSTONE to have a certified scale just outside their overhead door. As each unit was finished and rolled off the line out the overhead door and on the scale. The correct weight of that unit with it's options would be printed out and attached to its cabinet door. No more guessing Just my 2 cents worth..
Later John H

dsprik · 01-28-2006, 07:51 AM

I think that's a good, inexpensive idea. Shouldn't cut into the profits too much, I wouldn't thing?

derfr · 01-28-2006, 08:40 AM

Here are my brochure and scale weights as a basis for comparison of the accuracy of published weights. The scale weights were taken as I drove home from the dealer with an empty trailer.

Model: Mountaineer 298RLS

Brochure:
Gross dry weight (UVW) = 8910
Carring capacity = 3130
Hitch = 1880
GVWR = Gross dry weight + Carring capacity = 12,040

Scale weights:
Trailer only ie. Gross dry weight = 9780
Hitch = 2280

What this is telling me is that the options I have (not Gel Coat or Dual pane windows) have added about 730#, and the hitch weight as published is low by 400#. The options that I have are all the Moving to Montana, Convenience Group and Value group options. The brochure does say the UVW is "calculated as base unit with standard equipment only". The trouble is that some of those "options" are mandatory. I cannot remember what the sticker on the cabinet door said, but it was certainly not close to the true scale weights. I agree with Hemlockusa that a scale as the trailer exits the manufacturing plant would certainly relieve a lot of the stress that we have in trying to determine the true weight of our unit.
In response to many of you, I have seen on several Forums that Gel Coat and Dual Pane windows DOES add about 500 - 600 EXTRA pounds of weight to the coach, in spite of what we may intuitively feel.
In summary, yes our Carrying Capacity with options is much less than what we may think or feel comfortable with. This is a common concern that I read about constantly on various Forums all over the Net relating to all manufacturers.

derfr · 01-28-2006, 08:45 AM

Sorry, my mental calculator was not working well. The weight of options as calculated by subtracting published UVW from Scale trailer weight = 870#, not 730#.

richfaa · 01-28-2006, 09:29 AM

I did find that the Onan 5.5 generator which is what the Montana gen prep is for weighs in at 285lbs/less I am told the muffler??? and "controls"So again using rickfox very real numbers if one was to get all the goodies on the 3400 it would exceed the GVWR and not by a little bit and his cargo on board number of 1040 which of course is his real number.In IMHO is conservative..He is a good chooser of stuff..I did better than that in my TT. and yes it is a common problem in the Rv industry.The Rv industry seems to have a lot of common problems.My simple question is why do they not tell us what the options weigh so we can choose. Not a problem here I chose my options.

Montana Sky · 01-28-2006, 01:55 PM

I found out that the dual pane windows for a new 2006 3400RL add an additional 900 lbs to the entire dry weight of the coach. These windows also increase the R value by 1. It sounds to me like you would have to burn a lot of propane to equal the $1385 cost of dual pane. The biggest thing I was told these windows help with is condensation on the inside windows. The walls of an rv are not thick enough to provide enough space between the glass to provide the R value you get from dual pane windows for your home. Just thought I would pass this information along.

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