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Old 04-07-2011, 08:19 AM   #41
Illini Trekker
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Bingo I now can see what they maybe after with what you have called the boxing. It will all come down to the twist in the C channel the flex in the plate that is bolted to the channel. The one fix that added the gussets added more strength to the C channel twist. But has pbahlin talked with the diagonal bracing looks to me would put the X in the X-factor, and more labor and expense in the fix. Maybe Mor-Ryde built some movement into there X-Factor for the "give" that is needed to spread out the twist on the suspension in a whole?
 
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:25 AM   #42
bncinwv
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That is part of the confusing part that I am seeing. When I look at the X-factor on the web site and photos here on the MOC, it is a "U" or "C" type channel that appears to connect the spring hangers. The fix they put on our rig is as far as I know a complete one-piece square tubular piece of steel (four sides). I will have to get under the rig sometime and look from all sides to make sure. The only way that it will give is if the entire assembly gets bent???? As I said, the mystery deepens???
Bingo
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:49 PM   #43
oldelmer1
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Bingo,

You are correct, here is a picture of mine and the way its bolted together.

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Old 04-07-2011, 03:00 PM   #44
pbahlin
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All kidding aside, here's the deal. You have to go back to basics with the frame. It has two big I-beams that run the length of your rig. I-beams are intended to provide enormous resistance to bending in one direction only and that's in the direction that is parallel to its web (the big wide part). Since the web is basically a thin piece of steel it can only provide this resistance as long as it is exactly parallel to the forces that are trying to distort it.

That's where the flanges of the beam come in. The flanges are there to prevent the web from taking on any twist. If the web twists those parallel forces are no longer parallel to the web and it will fold up like a cheap suitcase. It is absolutely essential that the flanges are not allowed to bend. Once they bend they can't do their job which means the web can't do its job.

A good design must not ever allow the forces of the suspension to twist or bend the flanges of the I-beam because then you've set up the I-beam for failure. The Moryde, as it is installed by Keystone, is a recipe for disaster.

My guess is that the only reason we don't have more I-beam failures is that the Moryde/springs/hangers/bushings go first and then people get the DIY gene cooking and finish building the frame for Keystone.
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:23 PM   #45
pbahlin
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Update:

Woohooo! Just left Lazy Days in Seffner Florida and my rig is now the proud owner of an X-Factor on the equalizer boxes. Grand total of charges to me.....

$36.00!!!! The 36 bucks was due to some 'other' work I had done (stud that wouldn't torque up for me).

A couple of points....

Once again Keystone came through, supporting their product. Not sure the whole thing should ever have gone bad to begin with but when asked, they stepped up big time. So a big thanks to Keystone from me.

Here's another important reminder, for all who visit here, that I learned in this process. Don't rely on your dealer/servicer to deal all alone with keystone. The way the modern world of high tech customer service works is this. The servicer writes a service authorization request to keystone. At keystone, somebody looks up the requested work, as described, then goes to a flat rate manual and writes out an authorization back to the dealer. This is all taking place on computers with written 'descriptions' flying around like mosquitoes in a peat bog.

In my case the dealer submitted a work description with an hourly estimate that did not match up. The hours requested were something like three times what the flat rate manual predicted. Keystone told the servicer to go to the flat rate hours only, then call them for a conversation.

This was translated by the servicer, in a conversation to me, that Keystone only authorizes xyz hours. This was decidedly not true, but at that point I was apparently on the hook for $1200 of overage if the work proceeded.

I was not happy and got into the middle of the high tech mosquito messages. Turns out there was a lot of miscommunication in them thar' written messages and when I took charge of the messages it all smoothed out.

So get involved, be nice, and make sure everybody who is a part of the process is hearing the same song. This is a critically important part of the process and only you can be the force that makes that happen. Everybody else is trying to juggle sixteen things at a time and will pay the most attention to the person who helps them get it done.Keystone wants to get it right but they don't want to be stooges either.

One other thing is technical. The support that was delivered by Moryde looks exactly like the solid bar with flanged ends that somebody (sorry don't remember who the MOCer was) fabricated on their own. Strange that the Moryde literature is the two piece slotted channel iron. Maybe they aren't comfortable delivering a fixed length bar to anyone who isn't a dealer.
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:44 PM   #46
stiles watson
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Glad you got the problem solved and your patience was rewarded. The one I fabricated of 2-1/2" square tubing and 3/16" flat bar sounds like what you are describing which confirms my approach. My total cost came to less than $90. I think Keystone should reimburse me, but since mine did not actually distort, I am probably not eligible for it. However, I had rather have done it at my cost than be shut down on the road.
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:58 PM   #47
PSFORD99
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by pbahlin

Update:

Woohooo! Just left Lazy Days in Seffner Florida and my rig is now the proud owner of an X-Factor on the equalizer boxes. Grand total of charges to me.....

$36.00!!!! The 36 bucks was due to some 'other' work I had done (stud that wouldn't torque up for me).

A couple of points....

Once again Keystone came through, supporting their product. Not sure the whole thing should ever have gone bad to begin with but when asked, they stepped up big time. So a big thanks to Keystone from me.

Here's another important reminder, for all who visit here, that I learned in this process. Don't rely on your dealer/servicer to deal all alone with keystone. The way the modern world of high tech customer service works is this. The servicer writes a service authorization request to keystone. At keystone, somebody looks up the requested work, as described, then goes to a flat rate manual and writes out an authorization back to the dealer. This is all taking place on computers with written 'descriptions' flying around like mosquitoes in a peat bog.

In my case the dealer submitted a work description with an hourly estimate that did not match up. The hours requested were something like three times what the flat rate manual predicted. Keystone told the servicer to go to the flat rate hours only, then call them for a conversation.

This was translated by the servicer, in a conversation to me, that Keystone only authorizes xyz hours. This was decidedly not true, but at that point I was apparently on the hook for $1200 of overage if the work proceeded.

I was not happy and got into the middle of the high tech mosquito messages. Turns out there was a lot of miscommunication in them thar' written messages and when I took charge of the messages it all smoothed out.

So get involved, be nice, and make sure everybody who is a part of the process is hearing the same song. This is a critically important part of the process and only you can be the force that makes that happen. Everybody else is trying to juggle sixteen things at a time and will pay the most attention to the person who helps them get it done.Keystone wants to get it right but they don't want to be stooges either.

One other thing is technical. The support that was delivered by Moryde looks exactly like the solid bar with flanged ends that somebody (sorry don't remember who the MOCer was) fabricated on their own. Strange that the Moryde literature is the two piece slotted channel iron. Maybe they aren't comfortable delivering a fixed length bar to anyone who isn't a dealer.

I believe the two piece from Mor/Ryde is the only way they can sell them one size fits all. I don't like the idea ,but it is the only way they can do it. They might build them like you have if you had an accurate measurement for them , every trailer is going to be different. There is no reason to sleeve or splice them together with bolts if you are building one trailer specific. Measure the space between the hangers, subtract the thickness of the end plates x 2 cut tube ,angle, pipe whatever you are using to that measurement. I will either bolt the plates on ,and tack the brace on , or tack it together, then fit on trailer to check fit, then remove, and weld up. There is no need to splice them, IMO that is a weak link.
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Old 04-21-2011, 04:23 PM   #48
cjohnson
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After reading this thread, I sent Keystone the following request via the web: "I have been reading about the need for additional bracing (MOR/ryde X-Factor) what is Keystone's position for the add-on?"

This is the reply I received today, from their service advisor: "I would like to warn you that Keystone does not recommend any modifications to your unit. Any modifications will not be warrantable, nor will damage incurred by the modification. With that said, you own the unit and if you feel that a modification is necessary, I would like you to be aware of what our warranty encompasses."

My 2011 3100RL suspension looks identical to the previous pictures posted. Just investigating to prevent future problems. There is obviously a lot of stress when making very sharp turns.

Also received this from MOR/ryde today: "I received your inquiry about the x-factor cross member that you need. How many you want to put in is completely up to you. If you are going to put only one on I recommend you put it in the center. One cross member will help add lateral rigidity to your frame on the trailer. 3 will give you plenty of added lateral rigidity which you will notice when you are maneuvering your vehicle. Whether you want one or three is really kind of dependent on how much you use your trailer and how you are using it. If you are using your trailer a lot and are constantly pulling into sites that require you to back into tight spots requiring tight turns, than you may want to consider 3 cross members as you are putting quite a bit of stress on your frame on a regular basis. If you are usually occupying pull through campsites that don’t require tight turns and backing up, you may only need one cross member. It certainly won’t hurt at all to put all three cross members on the unit."
It does not appear that Keystone and MOR/ryde communicate!
More that likely, I will have at least the center one installed.
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Old 04-21-2011, 05:33 PM   #49
stiles watson
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Sounds like Keystone has talked to a lawyer. CYA
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Old 04-22-2011, 02:09 AM   #50
pbahlin
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Stiles:

When I get some time, I'll take some pictures of my fix (from Moryde). You won't be able to tell it apart from your own fix.

Interesting that reinforcing the frame voids the warranty but if the frame gets damaged then Keystone pays to reinforce the frame. Kind of like Alice In Wonderland isn't it?
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:16 AM   #51
Bob & Lee
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Iam retireing in Feb and going to travel full time. I have been following this. the first thing I have several lenghs of 2 1/2" sq stock looking at making my own X factor, how much do thy weigh? is the weight of this add on questionable?

Bob
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:54 AM   #52
Ozz
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Bob, the weight is not that much to worry about, the trade-off of strength is worth it. Maybe 25#-35#
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:50 AM   #53
Bob & Lee
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just came out from under the trailer, the axle had a tag with D60-8 I guess means 6,000 lb and now I'm mixed up. the center where the leaf springs connect dosen't look like any on the moride site, the two center leafs connect to a large rubber bushing in a box like the others but no pivot point they are bolted on the side in the box I may need to get photos if this make no sence so what suspention do I have?
Bob
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:12 PM   #54
stiles watson
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Bob,

It sounds like you have the Mor/ryde RE. 2007 model is about the right time frame. Mine is a 2008 and that is the type I have.

It has a metal box welded to the frame. In the box is a rubber spring held by 4 bolts on each side of the box. Laminated inside the rubber spring is a metal plate with "ears" out the side with two holes for attaching "J" brackets. To the "j" brackets, the shackles attach to each side. The other end of the pair of shackles is bolted through the spring eye.

I hope this description helps.
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:34 PM   #55
Bob & Lee
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that sure is a better view than I made Thank You I think that is what it must be now find it on the moride site. is it a dicent set up for now or do I need to upgrade this?

BOB
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Old 04-23-2011, 10:33 AM   #56
pbahlin
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Check out the flange of the I-beam that the box is welded to. There should be some kind of reinforcement there. On some rigs I've seen angle iron the length of the I-beam web that is welded to the web and flange. This is what was on mine but the angle irons were in random locations (left side different than right) so that they weren't doing what was intended. They should be over the box.

On other rigs there are square tubes welded into the corner where the web meets the flange. The ones I have seen are only about a third of the flange width. My take on this 'fix' is that this is sad. Square tubes don't have the lateral resistance required to do anything.

On others I've seen a plate welded from flange edge to web about half way up the web. This is the best fix to my way of thinking. It forms a triangle which is the best possible shape to prevent that flange from twisting towards the web.

I've got my damaged rubber equalizers and will bring them to the rally for a little show and tell.
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Old 04-23-2011, 10:49 AM   #57
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I just finished my X-Factor, one brace, I welded angle irons to buttress that area in there by the hanging support.
I am getting too old to crawl around under there, haul the welder in and out, haul the generator out for power, battery died on the truck..Old Yeller, battery died on the Honda generator, jack it up and put tires on... too much like work.
I think we all need the supports, but I bet many go thousands of miles and years of travel with no support and do just fine.
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