Tripping breakers! - Montana Owners Club

Montana_70 · 02-13-2006, 02:17 AM

OK, now what's the problem. I hope someone can shed some light here so maybe I can get a little heat.

Last night between 5 and 9 PM I had the computer on, one TV, one small lamp with a energy saver bulb, and two space heaters with fans. One a tower space heater and one a small plastic type that my neighbor takes tent camping. Both are two speed, 700 and 1500 watts. I was quite toasty as long as the bedroom door was closed.

When I went to bed I turned everything off. Got up at 5 AM and turned on one overhead light in the bath area, the coffee maker, and the heaters. It was 36 degrees inside. One plugged into a GFI and one not. Everything except battery lights went out. I tried flipping the breakers inside at the main and the converter. Nothing. Took flashlight and went outside and flipped the Main breaker on the pole. Lights came back on and coffee maker, but I cannot run both heaters again without tripping breakers. That's with no TV and no lights. They ran fine last evening.

GFI outlets have not worked since. I am on 50 AMP. Do you think this is my problem or perhaps the heavy demand in the park for electricity is causing this. Of course no one's lights were out but mine for the few other's that were up at that hour.

I know these little heaters can zap power and that's why I am careful where I plug them in and with nothing else on the same outlet. I also don't have a lot of other things going at the same time.

I am cold and puzzled

CountryGuy · 02-13-2006, 02:25 AM

BJ, Sounds like a lot of heaters to me, but, here is a thought too:

you have reset those ground faults, right?? pushed that little button?? Ground faults will wear out if they pop too many times, and will need to be replaced.

Is your electric water heater on, or is that on propane, frig on electric or propane?

Good luck with tracing the problem.

ols1932 · 02-13-2006, 02:35 AM

Country Guy has hit it. Put your water heater and frig on propane. First thing in the morning, everyone in the park probably has their electric heaters on causing a loading on the park power. You don't really have access to 30 amps there. Remember, one heater draws about 13.5 amps when set on high. So you are stressing it a little. In the evening, there was less use of heaters in the park.

Orv

Montana_70 · 02-13-2006, 02:47 AM

I have reset the GFI's. They probably should be replaced as they have tripped quite a bit since being in this park. Hot water is on gas, fridge on electric. The GFI's have resumed normal operation since I posted.

Not sure why so many would be running electric heaters, if I had a working furnace I would not be running electric heaters in the morning.

I only have about two more days of this so I'll just tough it out with one heater in the morning in the bedroom sipping coffee until the sun comes up.

Sign me "chillin out in Florida"

lightningjack11 · 02-13-2006, 02:48 AM

My ceramic heaters are about 1000 watts each so wattages are probably wrong.( so lets assume 700 and 1500 max and adjustable) I never operate mine at max.

Keep in mind that when park voltages go down current draw will go up to compensate.

For example,

2200 watts @ 125 volts is approx 17.6 amps total
but
2200 watts @ 105 volts is approx 21 amps total

I know you are having trouble with your furnace but it is always best to use the furnace to get the advantage of the heated underbelly.

A lot of campers get Autotransformers to keep their voltage up when park voltages are down. You can keep check on this with a voltmeter right at the wall outlet.

Montana_70 · 02-13-2006, 03:27 AM

Thanks, Tom.

I finally realized why Country Guy said, "sounds like a lot of heaters to me"

The first post was a type error. I edited it to read correctly 700 and 1500.

I know the furnace is optimal, I wish it were working. An Autotransformer is on my short list for sure.

steves · 02-13-2006, 03:37 AM

Your coffee pot is pulling a lot amps too. If that was on while you were trying to run the two heaters that could be the difference from last evening when the two heaters worked OK.

Garin1 · 02-13-2006, 04:07 AM

fla native, If you are tripping the outside main before the trailer main then I would have someone check the park supply for correct voltage. Also, you said the gfci has tripped several times while at that location. A lose wire can cause a gfci to trip out due to thier sensative nature. Also, a lose wire causing a bad connection (probably on the nuetral wire)can add current and heat.A standard breaker is also called a thermal overload device. Have the park check thier outlet for a lose wire and I suggest you do the same at the main plug.

Glenn and Lorraine · 02-13-2006, 04:18 AM

steves is right on. The night before you didn't mention the coffee maker and therefore you apparently had sufficient amperage to run everything you needed. In the morning you added another heating element in the coffee maker and that's where the problem was. Any heating element draws hi amps and trying to run 2 space heaters AND the coffee pot overloaded the breaker. Remember a 50 amp service is actually 2 services both being 110V, one leg is 30 amp the other leg is 20 amp which is used for the second A/C or the washer/dryer. If you can connect one of the heaters to the 20 amp leg you should not have a problem as long as you don't use the washer/dryer.

lightningjack11 · 02-13-2006, 04:30 AM

Fla Native,

I know I told you this before about the furnace but just to make sure I will say it again since I had the exact same problem.

CHECK your battery cells individually for proper operation. You can get a cheap 4 ball Hydrometer at Walmart or any Auto store.

If your inverter is wired so that you are using the battery outputs in the converter to supply 12V to the heater fan then a bad cell or two MAY cause the furnace cell to cycle. The heat will not turn on unless the fan is running(time delay)for safety reasons. MINE cycled the same way on a cold morning up north. Mine was wired in this fashion from the factory and I think it is standard for them to do so. I changed mine so it will never happen again. Bottom line is make sure all 6 battery cells are good before calling in the repair people. This would always be the first thing to check since you should checek you battery frequently when connected to shore power for long periods.

Just for info:

The GFI's will trip for two main reasons. 1. When the sum of the currents of all outlets connected to that GFI exceed the amperage trip point.
2. When the resistance between AC common and ground decreases below approx 100 ohms.

The decreasing resistance may be caused by water or wires that are starting to short together. In general the GFI's are pretty reliable.

rvfirefighter · 02-13-2006, 04:37 AM

You are having a problem that is common on parks with low 30 amp service and everyone is using heaters. I am in Fl. now and I purchased a volt meter to see how much voltage is coming in the camper. I have yet to see 120 volts. At night the voltage is less than 110. I use propane for the Hot Water and Furnace when making coffee. Your problem is pulling more amps than the park can produce. You might purchase one of these volt meters, approx. $20. It will give you a better idea what you can run.
Also, the real killer is a hair dryer, it will kick the outside breaker quicker than any appliance. One other idea is if you have an extra 15 amp plug on your outside panel, run a 12 gauge extension cord through the slide flap and run a heater off it. This might help.

OntMont · 02-13-2006, 04:50 AM

A non-technical suggestion: Try to find out which outlets are controlled by each breaker, then as a rule of thumb, just make sure you only plug one heating appliance (heater, coffee maker, kettle, hair dryer, clothes dryer etc. into each circuit; and that the total does not exceed 3 or 4 depending on whether you are on 30 or 50 amp service. Don't forget that your microwave, electric water heater and converter also count one each towards the total even though they are on their own dedicated circuits. It is not hard to reach 50 amps total when you start adding electric heaters, even with a good park power supply.

Montana_70 · 02-13-2006, 05:07 AM

Thanks for all the help. I do believe it was the coffee maker that put me on overload. I was thinking because I did not have TV's, computer, and lamps on I would be OK. But it's a different draw on the circuit with these small appliances.

I have made a list of the tester's I need to buy and of all the suggestions at what to try. It will have to be on hold until the weekend, as my work week has started. It is going to warm back up by then anyway and I will feel more like checking all those connections and testing voltage.

In the meantime it's no heat until coffee is made and shiver me timbers for a few more days!

firetrucker · 02-13-2006, 06:46 AM

Lightningjack11,

It's a common misconception that the amperage goes up when the voltage goes down that is not true in all cases. If you have a resistive load, like a heating element, and the voltage drops 10%, then the current also drops 10% (A=V/R).

For inductive loads, like an air conditioner, then the current will increase when the voltage drops to support the load that the motor is driving.

Bob

lightningjack11 · 02-13-2006, 08:44 AM

Bob,

I agree on pure resistive loads but I think you can show the some appliances such as anything with a motor, fans etc will have a tendency to draw more current when the voltage starts to taper down a little. Maybe I will hook up my variac on the bench and connect my heaters to see what happens for a 10 percent change. your point is well taken.

harleyrider · 02-13-2006, 10:51 AM

Was just wondering if Fla natives problem would have been solved if they had a autoformer????

i`ve just payed off my credit cards.And this zero balance just doesn`t seem right.I think I need to put 450 bucks on one and get a autoformer.lol

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