Level up failure

[hybridhauler]

Hi guys,
I ran into an issue with our 3750fl yesterday and was wondering if any of you have heard of this happening before.
Yesterday I went out to the rig and was going to extend the slides and when I hit the button to extend the slides, the front jacks retracted. I then went to the control panel for the level up system and saw that the display said "comm failure. Check wiring"
The key pad would not operate any of the jacks due to the comms error.
I contacted Lippert support and he was able to talk me thru retracting the 4 rear jacks and extending the two front landing gear by using the slide button inside the coach. The wiring between the key pad and the control module tested good so they assumed the issue was in the control module.
I took the 3750 back to the dealer for them to check it out.
I received a call from them a few minutes ago and they said that the corrected the comm error by changing the control module but when they went inside the coach to extend the slides, the front landing gear retracted. Same issue I had yesterday with the exception of the comm issue has been corrected.
The guys are scratching their heads and a few other body parts trying to figure it out.
Has anyone heard of this happening before?

[K0LCB]

I never had that with my 3750

[hybridhauler]

Considering we have used the rig only four times since we purchased it, it's a big dissapointment

[1retired06]

Hmm?

[Irlpguy]

Since I am not familiar with the 3750, for my education would you clarify a couple of things.
I assume the only rocker switch you have inside the coach is for the slides only.
I assume when you said you went to the control panel you went to the street side of your unit where you operate the level up either automatically or manually and it was this "keypad" that was displaying the error message.

I assume the level up system was deployed and the jacks were all down when you tried to move the slides out.

Without huge detail I wonder how you were able to retract the jacks using the "slide" rocker inside the coach, as you were assisted in doing by Lippert.

Would it be possible to provide a picture of your control module.

In any of the circuits I have seen for the slides, the switch inside the coach is hard wired into the control module, but with mine I can also operate the slides from my remote control. I cannot operate the level up from the remote but can operate the landing gear.

My control module has nothing to do with the level up. There is a module located on the top of your generator compartment or somewhere in the vicinity, this is what tells the level up circuit if the unit is level or not and may very well be the brains of the system.

You definitely have an interesting problem, very frustrating to you I am sure and obviously to the dealers repair people.

Not too likely we on the MOC can help but one never knows, that is why I ask for some clarification.

[hybridhauler]

Ed,
The rocker switch on the inside of the coach is for the three hydraulic slides only. The two front slides are electric.
The keypad showing the error message is on the curb side of the coach.
The level up was deployed and I was in the level position on a concrete slab.
Using the inside rocker switch to operate the jacks and not the slides is quite simple. Located beside the hydraulic pump is a hydraulic manifold. One solenoid is for the slides, one solenoid is for the center jacks and the third solenoid switch is for the rear jacks. The solenoid for the landing gear is located on the curb side landing gear cylinder. The purple power wire was removed from the solenoid that controls the slides. (This disables the slides) once that was done, I operated the rear jacks by manually opening the solenoid valve with a 5/32 hex key. Once this jack was raised, I closed the valve and repeated the sequence for the center jacks. Once the rear and center jacks were raised, I opened the valve on the front landing gear. This allows you to use the rocker switch inside the coach to raise and lower the landing gear. It's just a matter of isolating certain circuits and enabeling others and be able to use the hydraulics
I'm no hydraulics engineer but by trade I work with hydraulics daily. My understanding of the system is that when you toggle the rocker switch inside the coach, it sends a signal that fires the solenoid valve for the slides. Operating the jacks is much the same way but is controlled from the curb side key pad. You give the system a command to raise or lower a set of jacks and it fires a solenoid and the pump pressurized the jacks and they extend or retract. This in itself is pretty simple. Inside the generator compartment is a control module that basically senses whetrer the unit is level or not. If it determines the unit is not level, it will tell the appropriate solenoids to fire and raise or lower the jacks to bring the unit level.
Saying all of that, there may have been two separate issues we were dealing with. The comm issue was one and the other is that when you operated the rocker switch the landing gear jacks would retract. Right off the bat I would think that when I operate the rocker switch, somehow a signal is being sent to the landing gear solenoid causing it to retract them. So as it stands, the control module in the generator compartment was replaced and it cleared the comm error. But, when the rocker sw itch inside the coach is toggled, the front landing gear still retracts.
It's definately an odd situation and even the Lippert experts are a bit confused. I just hope this isn't an issue that others will encounter down the road. The level up system was a big selling point when I purchased the rig..

[tweber502]

Lloyd, I too am no hydraulic person but could the problem be a bad or stuck solenoid valve? On my 3400RL I only have hydraulic slides, my landing gear is electric, but my understanding of the hydraulic system is that the appliance with the lease resistance operates first. If the solenoid valve to the landing gear is stuck in the open position then the retraction of the landing gear would definitely be the path of least resistance and operating the slide switch inside the coach is only operating the pump with no discrimination as to where the fluid is sent to. With my coach, the lightest slide deploys and retracts first then the others follow in respect to size/weight. I reiterate, I am not an hydraulic expert, and I could be totally out of the park on this. Tim

[hybridhauler]

Tim,
I thought about that as well but from what the tech told me yesterday, everything is working as it should from the keypad. The fault is occurring when the switch is toggled for the slides. Something is still telling the landing jacks to retract when the slide switch is toggled.

[tweber502]

Lloyd, maybe I missed this in your original post and apologize if repeating what has already been stated but, assuming your coach is similar to mine and have 3 ways to deploy the slides. 1) rocker switch inside coach 2) rocker switch behind small door on street side of coach 3) remote control. What happens if you use the other rocker switch located on the outside of the coach or the remote control? Tim

Correction to above:
Only 2 ways to operate slides, rocker switch inside coach or remote control. Sorry for incorrect information. Tim

[Irlpguy]

Lloyd, another question: when you attempt to extend the slides from inside the coach does the landing gear fully retract or does it appear only that the pressure has been released on them. When you operate the slide switch to extend the slides, the motor runs and fluid is pumped through either the orange or black hoses, can't remember which is which to extend or retract either the slides or level up cylinders.

If the landing gear is extended and you don't operate the pump for any reason then the hydraulic circuit is closed, none of the cylinders move. Could it be possible that when you operate the slide switch and the motor turns you then open the hydraulic circuit and if the solonoid for the landing gear is defective it simply is releasing the downward pressure on those cylinders.

Now if you can fully retract the landing gear using the slide switch that might eliminate that theory. Although difficult in your case it is easier to diagnose a problem when you are actually there to see what happens under certain conditions.

Hope someone can shed some light on the problem for you.

[hybridhauler]

Ed,
When I first discovered the problem, when I toggled the slide rocker switch inside the coach, the front landing gear retracted and the switch would not re-extend them.
I just spoke to the dealer and he has been in contact with Lippert as well as Keystone. They seem to think the issue still has something to do with the control module. Either way, this is sounding like it will be an expensive repair.

[Irlpguy]

Lloyd I went back and re-read the posts and it appears you did not indicate if the hydraulic slides actually extended when you used the toggle in the coach, or was the only action the retracting of the landing gear.

One would assume if you disabled the solonoid on the landing gear, (yours is on the opposite side to mine) then the landing gear would do nothing, I wonder if you tried that.

My control module has one wire labled landing gear, that wire goes up to the leveling system, I don't think the voltage on that wire should go high unless you are using the remote but because I am sick with the flu I have not gone out and confirmed that.

One of the things that is baffling me is when you are attempting to extend the slides the fluid is going to the extend hoses, how is it getting to the retract hose on the landing gear. Might be an issue with the solonoid on the landing gear or the cylinder head itself, just a stab in the dark.

Waiting with abated breath for your solution, hope that comes before they decide to replace all the parts that may or may not be necessary.

If you are unable to extend your slides, that may require me to rethink some of my idea's.

[hybridhauler]

No issues with the slides, they all operated as designed when the rocker switch was toggled. This is why the purple power wire was remov Ed from the solenoid valve for the slides.

[hybridhauler]

I gave my Dealer a call 1-30 and asked how the troubleshooting / repairs was progressing. The Service Manager was not in due to an illness so I was able to talk directly to the Tech that was working on our coach. His first remark was "that thing is possessed" It appears that they installed a new control module and corrected the communications issue. They were all excited until they operated the slides from inside the coach and it nosedived on them. They contacted Keystone / Lippert again and they think that they may have sent the wrong module. Imagine That !! There was a big discussion between the dealer, Keystone and Lippert as to who would supply the module. I'm not sure who wound up supplying the module. Anyway another module is on the way.
I have thought about the problem in great depth as well as discuss it with the hydraulic techs on the ship. After drawing out the hydraulic circuit, redlining each hydraulic command and a lot of butt scratching it would lead you to thing that there were actually two problems. 1) The communications issue between the module and keypad. 2) and the possibility that one of the hydraulic valves could be sticking. This could be on the lead hydraulic cylinder on the front pair of jacks or on the extend manifold. A proper set of schematics would be a big help but I guess that is non existent for most units.
The Tech did not say how far they troubleshot the hydraulics circuit but from the sound of things they were just doing what was suggested by Tech support. The ole boys name is Bubba and he's a little tangle eyed so there is no telling. I will try and talk to the Service manager early this week and see what he has tried and hasn't.
I sure love the Montana but this sure makes me wonder about the build quality and some of the parts they use.
The coach has been used a total of three different times since we purchased it. That sure don't give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

[DQDick]

The problem is that Keystone and the other reasonable priced producers all use parts supplied by the low bidder. As a result, issues sometimes arise.

[Bama Camper]

hybridhauler - if "Bubba" is open to suggestion, ask him to swap the remote control receiver/control module. This is NOT the Lippert auto-level control module or it's control panel, those are separate modules. Also check the grounds to that module as well as re-seat the connections to it, and re-seat the relays on it. He may have to reprogram the handheld remote pad to the new board.

As you describe the problem, that remote control module is the only common device between the slides and the front jacks. As far as the slide rocker switches in the camper affecting the front jacks - again, the only common connection is the remote control module. I have seen failures in some of the equipment I've worked on over the years "crossover" to (otherwise isolated) circuits if there is a failure in a control like this.

Hopefully the dealership will have a spare remote control module in stock, but if not, then maybe they would be willing to pull one out of a similar model camper on the lot temporarily just for trouble shooting.

Just to repeat one IMPORTANT point - check (or actually re-make) the ground connections to all these modules. I already discovered one bad ground in my High Country causing weird problems. No star washer was used under a screw tapped into the frame causing loss of the ground connection.

I'm assuming you have a remote control, and a Lippert auto-level system. If this is not the case, then I'm all wet - never mind!

Good luck.

[hybridhauler]

Bama,
Our 3750 did not come with the remote control set up.
The controls for the level up is on the front left side of the coach and the rocker switch for the slides is on the inside. The control module that was replaced is for the level up system and is located in the top of the compartment where the hydraulic pump is.
To me, when the command for the slides is given, a signal is sent to the pump to turn it on. A signal is also given to the solenoid valves for the slides. This will then allow the slide cylinders to operate. A command from this switch should not communicate with the front jacks unless a solenoid valve was defective for the front jacks, or if a check valve on the front jacks of the level up fails to seat.....I can then understand why the front jacks retract when the rocker switch inside the coach it triggered. In saying that, with the control module being replaced which resolved the communications issue, this is looking like an issue with a solenoid or check valve. I will run it by Bubba tomorrow.

[mazboy]

hybridhauler, just a suggestion; use paragraphs and more spacing, hard to read.

[Bama Camper]

hybridhauler -
Oh well, I thought for sure I was onto something with the remote control module being the culprit since it would be common to both systems. Like I said, I've seen a similar failure in a piece of equipment that brought different systems together like that.

I follow your logic on the hydraulic connection. Seems like that is the theory to chase.

Good luck with it - let us know what you find.

[hybridhauler]

I'm sitting in Australia at the moment but I plan on giving the dealer a call tomorrow. Hopefully he will have some good news.