Very unhappy with new AC system!

[jlb27537]

James, You might try contacting:

Stephen's direct email is: holms@keystonerv.com

Stephen Holmes
General Manager of Retail Operations
RVIA/RVDA Master Certified Technician
Keystone RV Company
Dutchmen Manufacturing Inc.
866-425-4369 (Phone)
866-273-1453/1457 (Fax)

[jameswbarton]

Thanks Jim,

That is a very good contact I appreciate it. So far Keystne has not communicated to me at all this week. I did finally after 7 calls and various emails get an email from Dometic today telling me they were sorry they were to busy to answer my questions on their installation specifications. I may call the warranty dealer later today to see if Keystone ever authorized him to do anything. I have started letter writing.

[DQDick]

Also, I would bring it to the National Rally. You're 15 minutes with Keystone Tech could set the whole schedule behind, but in my experience they would then fix it.

[jameswbarton]

Thanks Dick.
I may look into that. I fear it may take removing one or more ceiling panels so I am just not willing to try that again as I have done on other RV's. It appears like I have duct collapse and leakage above the kitchen, too few supply ducts to run both AC's at the same time and there may be supply and return air mixing in the rear Blizzard unit.

[jcurtis934]

My guess is that dometic may be busy with calls from rv'rs that have crappy installs on acs as well as normal calls spread across their whole product line. Rv design to meet a suppliers install specs is probably borderline and assembly line workers don't make it better. When it comes to quality, don't expect it in an rv that you can buy for the cost of a good new tow vehicle! when I read trailer life magazine, I always am amazed that some companies try to dump the problems right back to the owners. John

[pammer]

We are watching this topic (Whisper Quiet Air Conditioning)very closely. I will be interested in the resolution (if there is one) to the crappy cooling capabilities of this new air conditioning system. we hope that Keystone or Dometic will come up with a fix or a recall.

[jameswbarton]

Gene and Pam,
If you have not already found Montana ceiling register problems go to http://www.montanaowners.com/forums/...rms=duct%2Cmod in this forum. My High Country has a 15,000BTU Dometic Blizzard in the rear and a 13,500BTU Dometic Penguin II in the front.

The Blizzard supplies 350 CFM and the Penguin delivers 320 CFM so they are fairly similar in ducted air distribution specifications. The supply duct size Dometic Specification is for 21 inches of cross sectional area. My ducts measure above the minimum at 28 sq inches cross section. Total duct length can be up to 40 feet per unit and ours are about 34 feet each, within Dometic specification.

What is far from specification is the supply register requirements. Each of my units specifications calls for 4 ea. minimum 14 sq. in free area registers, per system, up to a max of 8 ea. 14 sq. in registers per system. My registers are a knock off likely made in China with no specifications available. Measuring them and comparing measurements to other know registers interpolates to slightly less than 13 sq. inches of free air per register. It could actually be as low as 11 sq inches. My HC has only 7 ceiling vents so it has about 90 sq. inches of supply compared to a minimum requirement of 112 sq inches. My best guess is that I need to add between 1 and 3 additional ceiling registers, possibly more. You can test this theory by removing the rotating covers and measuring the difference. Removing the rotating fins should increase airflow about 35%. In my coach on identical days just removing the fins increased cooling by 3 degrees. Cutting the vent tubes flush or less than flush with the duct as described in the other posting increased my cooling capacity by 9 degrees F.

I have sent pictures and measurements to Dometic to see if they will comment or tell me how many registers to add. Since they are not communicating with me I am beginning to suspect I should not have told them I have a new Keystone since possibly they will evade the issue to protect them or their partner Keystone fro a lawsuit. We will see! Maybe I am just paranoid after all those days on hold with no music.

Also note you do not want the cold supply air pointed toward the hot air return. Intermixing supply air and return air decreases the efficiency.

[bshgto]

The biggest improvement I`ve come up with on the air flow is removing the grills all together and trimming the 2 that were up in the duct work. I think I`ll just cut all the fins out of the covers to just cover the screws and let it go. It really does boil down to the luck of the draw with the RV`s. Other than successfully arguing to get my front cap painted to solve the fading issue I have had a relatively trouble free camper this time around. I did just kick The Norcold 1200 out the front door to the gutter and put in a Nice residential unit along with a 1000 watt PSW inverter with 2 big golf cart batteries. Wife says we will never go back to gas -elec ever. Good Luck

[Golfmedik]

Good evening ladies and gentlemen. I regret to inform you that when I started this thread, I thought I was alone. BUT, feel mighty grateful in a way, that I am not. When we were at the beach, I removed all of the vent covers and it made a HUGE difference, but still feel that there is "volume" problem that has already been pointed out. Let me tell you about this weekend. I decided to try the unit out again using only 30a(as most of Georgia State Parks only have 30A). I moved the unit out of the sun into a shady area around 12 o'clock noon. The outside temp was 88*. Inside the rig was 93* according to two different IR guns. I turned on the rear unit on HI and then the front one on FAN as recommended by Dometic(Yeah, I didn't think much of it either, but did it). The outside temp made it to 91*, but the unit had been in the shade for over 4 hours when the high was hit. Here in the south, we LOVE our fans, so I have two high volume fans that we use to circulate air, either inside or outside the camper, during the heat. http://www.samsclub.com/sams/pivotin...navAction=pushI turned one of these units on and put it in the rear of the unit pointed towards the nose of the camper. This fan was turned on HIGH to move a LOT of air. At 8pm(8 hours after starting) the temp in the front bedroom was 82* and the bathroom was 81*. The rear of the camper was 79*. The outside ambient temp at 8pm, was 84*!!!!! The ceiling fans was on as well. This is TOTALLY unacceptable!! The older "07 Montana 3500RL next to us was used as a comparison. Both units were in VERY similar conditions as they were 40 feet apart. Only the rear air in it was turned on at the same time my new one was. However, the "Quick Cool" was opened up on it. At 4pm, the temp inside that unit was 77* in nose and 74* in the rear under the AC unit. NO FANS were used to circulate air other than the ceiling fan in the living area. At 8pm, with the unit still on HI, the nose of that camper was 73* and the rear was 71*.
My new unit cooled down by morning to 74* in the nose(79*outside), however I turned off the front AC unit completely at 9pm the night before as the air coming from the vents in the front felt warmer than it should. So, I feel that this "boosting" of air flow that was recommended to me by the dealer after speaking with Dometic, really did NOTHING. The AC unit in the front, as some of you had said, has coils that are not being cooled, therefore probably hindered the unit form cooling a little better.
On Saturday, the unit got up to 83* in the main area(kitchen) of the new one at 3 pm. The older unit remained in the low 70s to a high of 74* around 5:30 in the evening.
These new units, in my opinion, do not have sufficient air volume, returns are too small and the as James has said, not enough vents in the units. I called my service manager at home this afternoon and talked with him about this. He is going to call Montana and Dometic both this week to see where they stand in a possible solution. He was told by Dometic that both of my AC units were well within spec because they reached temps within 13* on ambient temps!
I am so sorry for the long post. Just sitting here venting so to speak, but to also show that I've actually tried what Dometic said to do. Dometic also said to my service manager that the RV industry forced them to develop these types of "Quiet" systems due to complaints of noise and the fact that most fifth wheels now have a straight roof front to back and arched from side to side. Not many with the "whale humps" anymore that allow for a bigger unit to be placed on the rear of the unit.
I will keep you informed. Thanks for listening.

[jameswbarton]

I have sent a letter to one of the Officers of Dometic in their Warranty department. I do hope that finally gets me an answer from their engineering department if Keystone met Dometic specs or not. My measurements say no so I am trying my best.

I have no idea what keystone Owner Relations is doing as it takes days or a week for my rep to call me. Check on how far your vent collars are sticking into the duct. If they are sticking in there at all I cut mine flush with tin snips and gained 9 degree cooling. Ideally on these half ducted return air units the hot air all needs to be at ceiling level flowing toward the return air vents and the cold air falling from the ceiling vents to the floor. The amunt of vents is a critical engineering item. The supply air system is supposed to be pressurized so it delivers equal air our of each register. The pressure in the duct is supposed to be .5 in W.C., but i no longer have a manometer to measure it. To many vents and the air distribution will be uneven. Too high a pressure in the duct tells you you are restricting the airflow.

You could never survive in my coach in TX, AZ, NM, or Ca Valley in the summer. BTW a BTU should be a BTU which is a measure of capacity, so are they lying about the capacity of the newer units. Possibly they greatly reduced the airflow to make them quiet? I hope they are not lying but I just hate hiring lawyers and they have theirs on retainer or on staff.

[Golfmedik]

I can barely survive in mine here in GA! What's maddening is what we pay for these units for them to be so frustrating and unfulfilling!

[bigskyjimmy]

Hate to go against the grain with some of you folks BUT With the minor adjustments I have made to mine which I(and many other members) have posted many times here all Summer long this year it has been in the 90's and mine is working great and We love our Whisper air and it just needs some minor "tweeks" that's all Which Keystone and other SOB's that use "Whisper Air" they just need to make the Mods so WE do not have to that on a 70K rig it would be easy for Keystone and other SOB's to fix ,if this Old backyard Mechanic can fix it for crying out loud they can too and WAY quicker then I did

[jameswbarton]

You have not gone against the grain as You and others that had to modify their vents adds more proof that the system has issues with design and implementation. Cutting out the vent fins and replaceing them with a less restrictive screen brings you supply vent are to minimum Dometic Specifications which you and others state made an improvement. I really think it is a big deal expecting every owner of a $70,000 RV to have to take a dremmel and modify and repair his vent installation.

I want my units to run at the highest efficiency so I am hoping to get the Engineering verification from either Dometic or Keystone for a permanent cure. I do not know if it will be changing vents, adding vents, fixing ducts, improving the distribution from the AC into the ducts. It would be honest for Keystone to publish a bulletin to owners of whisper quiet system that have this issue.

BTW in my installation I had to repair the mounting of my two single zone thermostats as they were measuring the inside temperature of internal uninsulated walls instead of the living space temperature.

[Bigdog]

We have a new 3950 BR with the whisper quiet AC system. So far we have had no issues with keeping the camper cool. Was in Va beach a few weeks ago and the outside temps were in the high 90's (97 to 99) and no problem keeping the inside temp at 70. Now I do agree that the air vents need to be changed so they can be adjusted or closed. I guess time will tell if we start to have issues described in this thread.

[jameswbarton]

What AC units do you have in the 3950 bunkhuse and how many of the 5 inch round ceiling vents? Is the air intake to both your AC's ducted? Yous appears to be doing what we want ours to do 70 degrees in 99 degrees is good.

[jameswbarton]

In the 3950 bunkhouse you said your vents are not adjustable by rotation? Mine are and they are called 5 inch vents although the hole is only 4.75 inches.

[bigskyjimmy]

yep right now it is 95 degrees and I got to our campground at noon Today when it was already Hot and it took only 45 min with the ONE A/C in the Living room to get it nice and comfortable, those mods I did are working great and they should work great for everybody else.....OR some folks can complain about it for another 10 Pages....Your call,it is Not hard to do gang and by the way you do not need a Dremel and a cut off tool and chicken wire like I did someone on the forum here found vents that shoot the air straight down like mine then all you need is some 1 1/12 inch PVC cut into 6inch sections and a bunch of connectors and start pushing them up one at a time in the ceiling vents and intake for about 2 or 3 ft and that improves the airflow IN AND OUT big time

[1retired06]

quote:Originally posted by bigskyjimmy

yep right now it is 95 degrees and I got to our campground at noon Today when it was already Hot and it took only 45 min with the ONE A/C in the Living room to get it nice and comfortable, those mods I did are working great and they should work great for everybody else.....OR some folks can complain about it for another 10 Pages....Your call,it is Not hard to do gang

.

X2

[richfaa]

It is unfortunate that we must do modes and tweaks to get our A/C and other systems working properly. This is our 6th Rv five different brands and it has been that way since day one.It is also unfortunate that we purchase these things without knowing that.

The A/C tweaks and Modes kept us comfortable in our 5K miles 38 day road trip it cost us some time and about 50.00 in vents with no calls to Keystone.

The Rv industry is what it is we should understand that. We need to do what needs to be done in keeping these things running or take up another hobby which at this point for us is not a bad idea.

Our 2008 F-350 6.4L diesel ,CC,LB, Dually performed flawlessly as it has for the last 85K miles.MOdes...zero..tweaks..Zero, Failures Zero.It runs right in front of the RV.

We have no regrets. The Montana's were our magic carpet that have taken us on great adventures.Warts and all.

[jameswbarton]

I am sorry you all have had such a time with air conditioning. While this is my first fifth wheel, it is far from my first RV. I guess Scotty, Terry, Coleman, Coachman, Fleetwood, Fleetwood Tioga, Fleetwood Southwind, and Alfa Leisure, brands are just not in your "all RV's have" Category. All of their AC units worked better than my HC 375FL's. This "brand new" highly advertised "four season, full-timing friendly, quiet cool air conditioning" that could not cool 9 degrees below outside temperature of 85 degrees the day I brought it home. They state they are "The Quality Leader in the industry". I might dispute that claim so far with a manufacturer that won't answer a warranty phone answer an email, and has had my RV in the shop over 1/2 the time I have owned it.

I hope some of you did not mean to be insulting, but if you want to be helpful I asked for help. Many of us have owned OB's and had no issues, I know from years ago this held true with Montana's. Otherwise if you think I am making this stuff up then please get all of your friends to buy a new 2016 Montana HC 375 FL just like mine from General RV with locations in 5 states.

Of course there is also another possibility that Keystone does not hear enough issues from its customers to improve their manufacturing process. IMHO You should not have to repair, replace all the tires, do extensive PDI lists, cause the dealer won't fix them later in a timely fashion, on something you paid $75,000++ or more for.

So I defer to you Montana Fanatics and Legends who seem to think it is acceptable for keystone to not honor their customers, by fixing their manufacturing issues.