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Old 11-20-2008, 07:54 PM   #1
blamb
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Winterizing while living in it

I studied up on all the winterizing threads in the forum, but most seemed to be geared toward those with intentions to store their monty's for the winter. How about some winterizing tips for us newbies who are living in them for the winter? I finally got into my monty just as the weather has turned cold and started reaching freezing temps at night. So I'm still new to figuring out how to best take care of it, and tonight is my first below-freezing night.

The first thing I did to winterize was buy some dense foam tubes that have adhesive where it's split. Then after I covered as much of the exposed water hose as I could with it and closed it up in it, I wrapped it tight in spirals with sticky tape made of the same type of material, only thinner. I was going to put heat tape on the hose itself before the foam but the store I got a ride to ended up not having any. A guy there tried to sell me this electric pipe warmer and when I said it was just like a garden hose, he said "oh well never mind it would probably melt it.". They need to make those for water hoses!

I wasn't sure what to do about the sewer hose, though. I have 2 hoses hooked up which makes it too long and makes it snake around on the ground, but one hose is too short. So there's a lot of standing water at any given time in the hose, unless everytime I use the water I go out and walk it from the rig to the hole to empty it. Alas.

So I decided since water is included with my "rent", for tonight, to protect the sewer hose I would just run water, not a heavy stream but not just a dribble either. That would also help protect the water hose, at least in my mind, and since I opened the grey and black tanks and left them open, water will constantly be going through them as well and then down the sewer hose, keeping it all from freezing. It's supposed to hit about 28 tonight.

Has my newbie brain made a mistake, or am I on the right track so far?

As soon as I am able, I am going to get some sewer hose supports and try to straighten it out as much as I can as well as make it go from the rig to the sewer hole at an incline, so there's never any standing water in the numerous low points like there is right now (well, before I opened the tanks and left the water running in the sink). I still don't know if I need to try to insulate it as well, or how to go about doing it. I am pretty physically limited (just putting foam on the water hose nearly killed me lol)

I also plan to consider the film for the windows, but I will have to put them on the windows on the outside rather than inside due to aforementioned limited physical resources. Although someone told me you have to do it before the weather gets cold, not when it's already cold - is this true?

Do I need to worry about my black/grey tanks freezing in this unit?

Thanks!
 
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:05 AM   #2
Bill-N-Donna
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I don’t think I would leave the black tank open. There needs to be an accumulation of water inside the tank to keep the solids form becoming a problem. I would keep the black tank closed and dump it about every 3-4 days depending on the usage and how fast it fills up. After dumping the black tank that is a good time to add the chemicals which will help eliminate odors.

I’m not an expert on living full time in a camper but I don’t think I would leave the water running at night to keep the sewer hose from freezing up. I would close the grey tank at night and try to open it whenever the temperatures are above freezing.

Concerning the water line; I would try to keep the fresh water tank filled up and use the water from inside the camper. This might help eliminate the need to keep it heated and worry about it freezing.

Again, I’m not an expert on full timing. I don’t full time but this is some of the things I would consider if I had to live in it during cold weather. Hopefully some of the more experienced full timers will chime in here and will probably be able to give you a lot better advice than what I can.

Wish you the best!


On edit: A lot of this should be considered depending on the climate you live in and just how cold it will get where you are located! Basically, I think I would treat everything like I would if I were living in a house, anywhere it can freeze it will!
I don't know just how well the tanks will do but perhaps others will give advice on that.
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:32 AM   #3
Mrs. CountryGuy
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Blamb,

Suggest revisiting Long timers and Fulltimers areas here on forum and reading the Archives as well. There have been a lot of posts on how to prepare for winter/cold weather in a Montana.

The fact that you have a newer unit, your unit will stand up to mucho lower temps than our 2004 Tana.

You do need to get those water lines heat taped, and might want to consider hard PVC pipes for the sewer lines.

As Bill points out, you don't want to be letting that black tank get empty for long, and don't leave the valve open. In the black tank WATER is your best buddy. Also, highly suggest, less paper, more water, for the black tank. A trash can for the lightly used paper is your next bestest friend.

A night of freezing temps in the 20's is a lot different than a night of temps in the 0 range. In the newer units a night of 20 is not gonna give you trouble freezing up your tanks. It will give you trouble getting water INTO the unit. Use the fresh water tank, and unhook hoses, drain em and curl em up for the night. We do that frequently and is it not a problem. Go a bit easy on the water use, short showers, etc. and you will learn that you can exist for a lot longer than you thought with that 60 some gallons of fresh water on board. (I have gone 15 days in the summer on that much water, and never dumped or filled back up, you should be able to do several days without trouble.)

Good luck, again, start re-reading the Archives in Longtiming and Fulltiming areas of MOC. Lots of good hints there.
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Old 11-21-2008, 05:11 AM   #4
blamb
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Thanks! I'll look around in those areas. The search thingy didn't bring up a lot in either of those forums.
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:29 AM   #5
capn chris
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Suggest that you PM or contact Icehouse, aka Tammi. They're doing same in AK! Sure they'll have good ideas for you. Steve Reigle would be another good one.
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Old 11-21-2008, 09:41 AM   #6
ols1932
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From a fulltimer. Don't let the water run! If it's freezing outside, the sewer hose will begin to freeze, water will begin to back up, freezing as it goes. Then you'll be running water into your grey water tank. Not worth the chance. Just disconnect the sewer hose at the rig, hold it up and walk the liquid down toward the sewer inlet in the park.

As for pipe heating hoses, I have one on my 25 ft water hose that is connected to a thermostat. When the weather drops below 34° it kicks in. Have never melted a hose! I used a styrofoam cooler box over the water connection of the campground with a light bulb inside to keep the park water connection from freezing. Never have had a problem with this setup. As a matter of fact, I have a dual filter setup also inside the cooler box and it has never frozen down to -7°.

Your grey and black water tanks shouldn't freeze as long as you run your furnace at night with a thermostat setting of about 60°. Ours don't.

Orv
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Old 11-22-2008, 02:53 AM   #7
Illini Trekker
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This will be my second winter in the camper in east Central Illinois, as I work out of my camper. My trailer is much older that your and hot and cold line under the camper needed to be heat taped and wrapped with foam to keep from icing up.
I also agree with others
Heat tape hose plus the supply line that come out of the ground.
Close holding tanks and drain throw hard PVC pipe. Ice will build on ice if left open to drain.
Get larger LP tank 100# or larger 250# tank that dealer will come by and refill.
I use electric heaters when temp are in the 20's but at night you must run furnace to keep pipe and tank warm.
Some have in closed around bottom of trailer, I have not had to.
I have cut and inserted foil insulation like bubble wrap in the window openings. You can buy at big hardware store.
Cover sky lights with Velcro and same foil bubble wrap.
Also like to cover the floor with throw rug to help with throw midnight snacks.
Hope this helps PM me if needed, home on weekends to use INTERNET.


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Old 11-22-2008, 05:12 PM   #8
Okie Guy
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Blam I sent you a pvt message. If you need some help give me a call Sunday or Monday morning and I will try to give you a hand getting set up for the winter. Do you have the big 100 pound propane tank? This would be a great help with our Oklahoma winters. I go through one tank a month.
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:14 PM   #9
sreigle
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We've done several Decembers in Kansas City with temperatures to 5 below and a couple of weeks with a high for that period of 14 degrees. There are others here who have done far worse but I'll try to provide whatever insights I can.

Your rig is new enough that none of your "exposed" lines are anything to worry about. Those in the basement storage area will not freeze unless you're talking extended subzero weather, like Tammi and Patty are enduring at times.

Your foam-covered hose will suffice down to the low twenties but after that just foam won't cut it. The heat tape most of us use says specifically it is intended for rigid pipe, not for flexible hoses. But we use it anyhow. I first saw it in use in an rv park in Golden, CO, where the park makes and sells heat taped water hoses using this same heat tape. Just run it parallel to the hose, then double back the excess on the other side of the hose. I've used ours for almost six years and it's in use as we speak.

Alternatively, Tractor Supply sells a heat tape that can be wrapped around the hose, if you want. I use that hose to heat tape the park's water line, the above ground part. I also have a five gallon bucket I fill with insulation and put that over the park's water bib handle, upside down, just to handle that inch or two I can't get heat tape on. The heat tape I use is what you buy at Lowe's or Home Depot. It won't melt the hose.

Your '09 is like our '07. You're a whole lot better off than the earlier models, the ones without the inside water connection center. Your water lines in the belly are in an insulated channel of their own, between the floor and subfloor. They're not likely to freeze so long as the furnace runs occasionally. The furnace has a two-inch duct in the belly. Also, the openings between belly and basement storage allows enough heat into that storage area to keep it from freezing. Maybe if you have extended periods below zero it might be a problem but otherwise it hasn't been for us. I have our water filter and water regulator sitting in the basement storage area. I also plugged the hose outlet hole in the connection center with rags to reduce airflow and also to try to keep rodents out as much as possible (probably a pipe dream).

I used the outside window film one year. It worked well but I prefer the inside type that's easier to tighten up should it come loose a bit. But either will work. I don't know why you couldn't put it on in cold weather unless perhaps the tape won't stick well on a cold frame. I ran out of the tape on the outside film and had some leftover from the inside kit and used that. It seemed to hold better than the outside tape. You might buy some of that tape and try it if the outside tape isn't holding. You can buy it separately.

Sewer hose. I try to set ours up so the entire run is downhill. That is so I don't have to "walk" the hose after each dump, like you've been doing. I use the half-round pipe for supporting the sewer hose and guaranteeing there are no low spots. You can use any of the supports or just wood blocks under that to create the incline and provide support. You will not need to insulate the sewer hose since the liquid will flow downhill into the septic tank or sewer line.

I keep all tank valves closed in the winter. As Orv said, you don't want ice building up in that sewer hose. Been there. He's correct. I keep the tanks closed, dump them when necessary, close the valves again, then walk the hose if it's not all downhill. It's more work having to dump more tanks more often but it's far better than the frozen hose. The problem with the frozen hose is likely it's backed up into your dump pipes under the rig, the ones below the belly. Then you have a serious problem. You can't just swap sewer hoses and dump the tanks. You can't dump tanks because the dump pipes are frozen solid. And, believe me, getting those thawed out in subfreezing weather is tough. What I had to do was to run hot water into each tank until that pipe broke clear. Then close the valve and do the next tank. That meant using pots and pans to transfer hot water into the toilet to clear that one out because the ice had blocked that dump pipe, too, even though its valve was closed. So keep those valves closed.

As for the 28 degree situation, I wouldn't really worry about that one too much. I read long ago that at 27 degrees it takes four hours for a water line or hose to freeze solid. Some ice will form but it will break loose easily if less than four hours. At 28 and you living in the rig, your internal water lines will not freeze. You can always disconnect the outside water hose and turn on the water pump, assuming you have water in the fresh water tank. But your foam on hose should work fine to keep that one from freezing if temps dip down to 28 and then back up overnight. The park's pipes might be a problem if not insulated, though.

As long as the furnace runs occasionally to pump heat into the belly you won't need to worry about insulating the tanks. I had a belly panel pulled down once on the opposite end of the rig from the furnace duct and was pleasantly surprised at how much heat and airflow there was in the belly. I no longer worry about it.

It might interest you to know that Montana tested these newer rigs, the ones with the inside connection center, to zero degrees with no freezing. That's with furnace running occasionally, though.

From what you've said I think you've done a good job researching and thinking this through. Please don't hesitate to ask questions here or by email, to any of us. We'll be glad to try to help as best we can.

Good luck.

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