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01-19-2022, 01:22 PM
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#1
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 53
M.O.C. #28754
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Lithium Battery will not run internals with power off.
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01-19-2022, 01:25 PM
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#2
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 53
M.O.C. #28754
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1. Validate fuses are fine at panel. Performed multiple voltage tests at panel for converter.
2. Voltage test on lithium battery 14.0
3. Confirmed voltage at 14 from LCI panned.
4. With battery key in on position, and no shore power, no lighting works. Fri great or no power.
5. Checked with voltage meter from battery to external cables before panel, 14 v.
6. After converter, validated 110 voltage from plug in storage area.
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01-19-2022, 03:19 PM
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#3
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Site Team
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Carmichael - CA
Posts: 7,685
M.O.C. #4831
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Your Posts have moved to a new Thread as the original Thread is 3 years old and a different topic.
__________________
Carl (n Susan)
There is more to life than fuel mileage.
2012 Montana 3700RL Big Sky Package towed by a 2015 Ford F350 6.7L PSD 4WD CC LWB
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01-19-2022, 03:56 PM
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#4
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Site Team
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Carmichael - CA
Posts: 7,685
M.O.C. #4831
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I am having trouble understanding what you have done in terms of testing and what doesn't work. It also helps immensely if you list the year and model on your Montana.
I assume all these tests are without shore power? I am not Lithium Literate. Is 14.0V a normal charge state for one of these puppies? I would have guessed closer to high 12v/low 13V.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondockboomer
1. Validate fuses are fine at panel. Performed multiple voltage tests at panel for converter.
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Does this mean the reverse polarity fuses are good and there is 14.0V at the DC buss?
Quote:
2. Voltage test on lithium battery 14.0
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Where did you measure? Across the Positive and Negative posts?
Quote:
3. Confirmed voltage at 14 from LCI panned.
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??? What is "panned"? Are you referring to the LCI Level UP panel which has a voltage display?
Quote:
4. With battery key in on position, and no shore power, no lighting works. Fri great or no power.
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The battery disconnect switch is a source of confusion. The labels "On' and "Off" are often counter intuitive. If the Red Key can be removed from the switch then the battery is disconnected and not providing power to the fuse panel nor being charged by the converter. The Red Key should always be in the position where it can not be removed. Always!!!!
You write no lighting works. What about other 12V outlets and devices - specifically the water heater in Propane mode? Normally I would check the refer but I see you have an inverter in the battery bay which implies a residential refer. The WH needs 12V in order to operate on propane. What about the inverter. Is it supplying 120V to it's outlets and refer?
Quote:
5. Checked with voltage meter from battery to external cables before panel, 14 v.
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I don't understand what this means. What cables, panel, etc. Can you elaborate?
Quote:
6. After converter, validated 110 voltage from plug in storage area.
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Once again I don't understand. The converter produces 12V DC. A 120V AC plug in the storage area could supply power to the converter if it is a stand alone one (this is why a description of you rig is important) but standalone converters are not used on the Montanas (just the HC line I think).
One possible problem is the Red Disconnect key. If it is in the wrong position (it can be removed) you will not have 12V between the converter, 12V fuse panel and the batteries. The LCI panel and jack/slides will show voltage and work are they are wired independently.
Another source of trouble may be the 50 amp self resetting circuit breakers behind the battery. You should upgrade to an 80 amp CB for the supply to the pump and coach. But first check for the same voltage on each side of those two CBs to ensure they are functional.
Overall the wiring and flow of 12V DC from the converter to the batteries (and back) is pretty straight forward. From the buss on the converter, to the disconnect switch, to the self resetting circuit breakers to the batteries. A VOM should find where the interruption is located.
__________________
Carl (n Susan)
There is more to life than fuel mileage.
2012 Montana 3700RL Big Sky Package towed by a 2015 Ford F350 6.7L PSD 4WD CC LWB
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01-19-2022, 03:58 PM
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#5
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salem
Posts: 7,663
M.O.C. #2283
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Do you have a lithium inverter? If you do the voltage while hooked to shore power should be 14.5 or 14.6 or very close to that. If it is only 13.6 your batteries aren’t fully charged properly less than 80%.
Lynwood
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01-20-2022, 10:40 AM
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#6
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 53
M.O.C. #28754
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No I did not change inverter to Litium one. Did not realize it would be specific to lithium.
With that said, here’s the info Carl and Susan asked for.
2018 Montana 3701LK
Progressive Dyn PD4500 series converter with pin switched to LI.
CSW 1012 1000 WATT Inverter, showing 13.4 volts, powering only the refrigerator with Batter disconnect off.
Test 1. Checked lithium voltage (gradually dropping NO on shore power) 13.4 volts. From battery to inverter terminals 13.4 volts. From plug of inverter to any device, powers up.
Test 2. From RV electrical panel, test converter using Volt meter. See screenshots.
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01-20-2022, 10:44 AM
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#7
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 53
M.O.C. #28754
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Hope that helps and thanks for any insight you have. Oh incidentally, this all started with I added the lithium battery and external solar to the fifth wheel.
Since that time I got rid of the old deep cell battery and have removed the solar connections entirely. Bottom line refrigerator works, but the LCI will not work to raise or lower RV, clicking noise at capacitor which to me indicates low voltage despite this is brand new Lipo battery. No lights or plugs or anything but refrigerator is working off shore power. Refrigerator, no issues.
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01-20-2022, 12:07 PM
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#8
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 53
M.O.C. #28754
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Sorry should have been more clear.
1. Validate fuses are fine at panel. Performed multiple voltage tests at panel for converter.
Does this mean the reverse polarity fuses are good and there is 14.0V at the DC buss?
Yes performed several tests as indicated by the screen shots, except only 13.29 volts coming into panel.
Quote:
2. Voltage test on lithium battery 14.0. 13.29 now
Where did you measure? Across the Positive and Negative posts? Yes positive and neg post. Included screenshot.
Quote:
3. Confirmed voltage at 14 from LCI panned.
??? What is "panned"? Are you referring to the LCI Level UP panel which has a voltage display?yes LCI panel has battery voltage indicator
Quote:
4. With battery key in on position, and no shore power, no lighting works. Fri great or no power.
The battery disconnect switch is a source of confusion. The labels "On' and "Off" are often counter intuitive. If the Red Key can be removed from the switch then the battery is disconnected and not providing power to the fuse panel nor being charged by the converter. The Red Key should always be in the position where it can not be removed. Always!!!!
You write no lighting works. What about other 12V outlets and devices - specifically the water heater in Propane mode? Normally I would check the refer but I see you have an inverter in the battery bay which implies a residential refer. The WH needs 12V in order to operate on propane. What about the inverter. Is it supplying 120V to it's outlets and refer?
Key is totally removed Refrig is working fine, but no sockets, lights, etc, which is weird.
Quote:
5. Checked with voltage meter from battery to external cables before panel, 14 v.
I don't understand what this means. What cables, panel, etc. Can you elaborate?
Voltage meter was on neg from battery and checked all positives on bus bars
Quote:
6. After converter, validated 110 voltage from plug in storage area.
Typo. After inverter validated, went downstream from there.
I am not an electrician but I do play one on TV
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01-20-2022, 12:20 PM
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#9
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 53
M.O.C. #28754
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It’s a CSW 1012 inverter that came stock with 2018 Montana. Manual does not indicate anything about lithium
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01-20-2022, 02:36 PM
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#10
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Site Team
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Carmichael - CA
Posts: 7,685
M.O.C. #4831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondockboomer
.....Key is totally removed Refrig is working fine, but no sockets, lights, etc, which is weird.....
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Insert the Red Key and turn it to the other position!!!!
With the key removed and the 120V power off, the connection from the battery to the fuse panel (and all the 12V electrical devices) is severed. No 12V current can flow between the two. If there was 120V power, the converter can't charge the battery.
The inverter which feeds the residential refer and outlets is wired independently and works regardless of the red key position.. Same with the LCI Level Up panel, jacks and slides. They are wired separately from the red key. There are other 12V devices (propane detector, etc.) which draw current when the key is removed which is why the battery will discharge to nothing while in storage.
__________________
Carl (n Susan)
There is more to life than fuel mileage.
2012 Montana 3700RL Big Sky Package towed by a 2015 Ford F350 6.7L PSD 4WD CC LWB
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01-20-2022, 03:26 PM
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#11
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Montana Master
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alton
Posts: 2,892
M.O.C. #24086
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No DC power from battery. Good when on Shore power.
RED BATTERY DISCONNECT SWITCH IS ON
(the key does not come out of the socket).
Take a multimeter. On shore power, check each post of your red 50A self resetting circuit breakers near your batteries. They should all read the same (about 12.4vdc).
Now remove shore power. Check them again.
Which ever one is NOT showing 12vdc on the post, it is bad. Replace it.
Note: charging is also possible via the 7 way cable from your tow vehicle. It could be supplying power on the same (good) side of the breaker.
Buy Bussmann 50A self resetting circuit breakers. Very reliable. You can get them at your local auto parts store.
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01-20-2022, 03:30 PM
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#12
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Montana Master
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alton
Posts: 2,892
M.O.C. #24086
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Put your battery disconnect key back In and turn it to ON.
Battery Disconnect Switch.
The labeling of this Switch is confusing.
Ignore the word "Disconnect"
Read it as "BATTERY ON" or "BATTERY OFF"
When the battery is connected "ON", the key will not come out.
When the battery is "OFF", the key will come out.
Be aware it really does not Disconnect everything. You will still have some parasitic drains such as the propane detector, CO and smoke detectors etc. Remove the negative battery post if you really want to Disconnect the battery.
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01-20-2022, 03:33 PM
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#13
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Montana Master
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alton
Posts: 2,892
M.O.C. #24086
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Once you get this sorted out you want to move your hydraulic pump to its own 80A circuit breaker.
LCI put out a TSB about that. A copy of it is in the files section.
You can search the forum for
Hydraulic circuit breaker.
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01-20-2022, 03:37 PM
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#14
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 53
M.O.C. #28754
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Shore power off. Battery disconnect on as stated in screenshot. Only Frig works.
Battery at 13.1%.
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01-20-2022, 03:43 PM
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#15
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 53
M.O.C. #28754
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I am going to try that tomorrow am.
Btw…truck charging battery does work, but does not appear converter does. I never here the fans on the converter but I did troubleshoot the converter in the pics above and it did check out. So your steps are not something I have tried. Definitely worth doing.
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01-20-2022, 03:54 PM
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#16
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 53
M.O.C. #28754
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Daryl’s,
If I understand you correctly your saying in pic1 (large reset switch/breaker) change that to a Bussman 50 amp.
In pic 2, the wire that leads to hydraulic pump I have my finger on add an additional a 80 amp fuse. Is that correct? Any recommendation on brand there?
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01-20-2022, 04:10 PM
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#17
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 53
M.O.C. #28754
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Must be between converter and Battery.
After all I have done, if I followed the current correctly the problem must be between the converter and the battery. I would assume if shore power is off or on, the converter has to be working or frig would not be. With shore power off, I would assume the battery is powering frig, and again converter comes into play. Is that correct.
And then lastly the new lithium battery continues to drain, which is fine, as it’s better for battery to get at least one good drain in, but clearly on shore power the battery is not charging.
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01-20-2022, 05:49 PM
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#18
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Site Team
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Carmichael - CA
Posts: 7,685
M.O.C. #4831
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You have residential refer. It is powered either by 120V from shore power, or by 120V supplied by the inverter. The inverter gets 12V from the battery, and supplies 120V to the refer, with a separate and distinct cable independent of the disconnect switch.
The operartion of the residentail refer has nothing to do with your 12V issues.
__________________
Carl (n Susan)
There is more to life than fuel mileage.
2012 Montana 3700RL Big Sky Package towed by a 2015 Ford F350 6.7L PSD 4WD CC LWB
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01-20-2022, 08:03 PM
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#19
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Montana Master
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alton
Posts: 2,892
M.O.C. #24086
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Some useful info
https://www.keystonerv.com/owners-how-to
Quick question.
Do you have a transfer switch?
If you have a generator OR are pre wired for a generator you will have a transfer switch. The PD ATS has a high failure rate.
Again, I believe one of your red self resetting circuit breakers is bad.
If everything works on shore power (120vac systems, microwave, TV receptacles, air conditioning etc.)
AND 12vdc system work lights, furnace, hydraulics, slides.
Now remove shore power.
The batteries SHOULD provide power to your 12vdc systems. Lights, furnace, radio.
At this time, turn on the inverter power switch on the wall above your batteries and turn on the power switch on the inverter. This provides power to the fridge and whatever receptacles are wired to your inverter.
You mentioned your batteries charge when your 7 way cable is connected.
This further makes me believe one of those red self resetting circuit breakers is bad.
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01-20-2022, 08:08 PM
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#20
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Montana Master
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alton
Posts: 2,892
M.O.C. #24086
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These are the terminals you have to check
Take a multimeter. On shore power, check each post of your red 50A self resetting circuit breakers near your batteries. They should all read the same (about 12.4vdc).
Now remove shore power. Check them again.
Which ever one is NOT showing 12vdc on the post, it is bad. Replace it.
Note: charging is also possible via the 7 way cable from your tow vehicle. It could be supplying power on the same (good) side of the breaker.
Buy Bussmann 50A self resetting circuit breakers. Very reliable. You can get them at your local auto parts store.
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