Warranty Headaches

[Exnavydiver]

Since we bailed out of Wisconsin just ahead of 10 inches of snow after taking delivery of our Big Sky we didn't get to do a maiden voyage/ shake down trip. So since then we have found a list of problems, Micro/convection bad, light fixtures broken, cracked counter top, floppy floor in dining area, dvd player inop, and several other things. We are in Mayport Fl. Called Sun Coast on Tuesday two weeks ago they took a week to get approval from Keystone then couldn't get us in for another two weeks. We have some Dr appointments due up in Savannah next Wed and couldn't hang around that long so they gave us the # of a mobile service. They came right out to the base. Once again it is taking Keystone a week to approve the repairs and today while talking to the mobile folks I find out that I am responsible for a 125$ service call which NOBODY said anything about till now. Grrrrr!! As it stands at the moment the parts should take 6 to 10 days to get here so we will move this weekend up to Savannah. We will spend a week or so in Savannah and head back down here for the warranty work and go directly to Starke Florida and avoid another service call charge. The counter and slide floor are huge jobs so we will try and set up an appointment in Goshen in April or May on our trip north. This means we won't be heading west AGAIN this year. But maybe we can do a quick Key West run before heading north. ... Dave and Betsy

[racerjoe]

Again, poor quality control at the factory !!! and as seems to be the normal with RV dealers,not even to take enough time to do any pre-delivery inspection to see very obvious problems. I bet they took all the time they needed to take your money. That never seems to be a problem. Keystone should be ripping the dealer a new one, for letting it leave that way. It makes both of them look bad. Again I will say,over and over, if you bought your new truck and it had those problems at first drive out,you would be back driving it into their window the next day.(not meaning you personnally)The dealers need to accept some responsibility it prepping these units. They should not let them go and hope you will not catch some of the flaws,and you should not have to do a 3 hour inspection to make sure it is right. Isn't that why you bought thru a dealer in the first place? They made a profit,the factory made a profit, but we have to be the ones to find the problems.It dosen't make sense.

[bsmeaton]

Racerjoe - that's not fair to Keystone.

These are not QA issues on the production floor. It wouldn't matter if they had the design engineer screw in the stuff himself with gold plated screws, the micro would still break, the counter would still crack, the DVD would still fail (actually - all of the above happened to mine "after" delivery). The floor is actually a bad design, not quality control of production (ours does the same thing).

I will agree that the Dealer is being a wuss waiting for pre-approval from Keystone to fix anything. The Dealer should have enough confidence to know what is going to be accepted or not as warranty and short of having the parts on hand, should be able to do the work and settle with keystone later.

[racerjoe]

Brad, you are right,
it is not fair to Keystone for what can happen during transit. But it is hard to believe that all those things happened after it left their hands. The DVD player and the microwave you would think work after install,but was it checked? I will stand my ground on that the dealers should be much more responsible for inspection before delivery and not make you find the problems. Keystone needs to give their dealer network more leeway in making repairs of a new unit also, Dave should not have to wait weeks for approval or jump thru hoops getting it repaired.Don't take me wrong,I would more than likely buy another Montana but It is just frustrating to see all the post on this and other forums that talk about quality problems,you would think after all these years they would start to get it right.The auto companies saw the light after everyone started to buy brands from overseas years ago. They are still not perfect,but they have come a long way since then.

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

Al always calls this

MTBF

Or, Mean Time Before Failure.

as in: the hard drive on my lap top will run "X" hours before failure, it is not IF it will fail, but when.

Seems the the MTBF on the DVD is about 10 hours?? The Appolo, what, 3 months?? OKKKK, just throwing numbers out here. THAT said, of course, we are not gonna hear from a dealer that they did a 25 hour PDI and found that the DVD is bad and have already replaced it, eh??

My point, here, even tho I am having trouble putting it into words, is that the dealer may have done an outstanding PDI, Keystone may have done a fab job checking a specific unit before it left the factory, and you, as owner, also did a long and tedious and thorough PDI, BUT, after you take that unit down the hard road, and bounce it a bit, and use the stuff, and exceed the MTBF time, the DVD will break. So, is that Keystone's error, or the dealer error, or your error? It is a vendor item, and the blame should go back to them, with Keystone wearing egg on their face for buying the junk to begin with.

The bouncing floor is another issue altogether. Al and I have our own opinion on that as well, which we have discussed with Montana employees and sales reps several times over the last 12 to 18 months. The fact that they are still bouncing, truthfully keeps us from considering an upgrade purchase, that and the matter of $$$$

[bsmeaton]

(Carol - great answer - we must have been typing at the same time thinking the same things)

I don't think it was Transport's fault either, nor would I blame the Dealer for the initial problems.

Unless I read wrong, Dave and Betsy's crack and electronic failures happened after they bought the rig, just like ours. The blame for that goes to the product manufaturers and Keystone engineering for using those products. I see the counters are no longer used in late 2008 models, and I suspect the Apollo and DVD player will eventually get replaced with other brands.

As far as the floor, can't blame transport for that either. It is a bad design, and production folks were just doing what they were told by design engineering.

Now the Dealer needs to make this right with Dave and Betsy, and Keystone needs to make it right with the Dealer, and it doesn't sound like it is going well so far.

[racerjoe]

Hitting the road is one thing, but all this could not have happened on the first trip. failure and problems after miles and time I could see,but if all that happened after the first trip,by the third pull they should be careful stepping into the trailer,there might not be any floor left.

[Fire5er]

With all due respect, what do you mean that it's not fair to Keystone? I understand what you are saying about the poor design on the trailer, but how many of you on this forum have had problems with: 1. Micro/convection oven, 2. Cracked counter tops, 3. Floppy floor in dining area, 4. Bad DVD player, etc, etc...
I have read too many reports of the same issues with the same items on our rigs going bad. Who selects the vendors to use to outfit a Montana??? KEYSTONE. Keystone needs to ensure that they use vendors that provide a product that will perform as intended. If not then Keystone needs to find new vendors. It’s like a joke the way people continue to report the same problems with the same equipment on this forum. I have not have any of these issues with mine yet; and notice I said YET. But with every thread I wonder when it will be our turn. When will we have a major item go bad? I hope when it is within warranty, but more than likely not. I know that Keystone has stepped up and fixed some if not all of the issues for some of you. But I can't afford to take my unit back to the factory for the repairs. I know that some of you have had good luck dealing with the vendors that Keystone uses. But why should we be having problems with the equipment in the first place..many within the first year. I do feel that Keystone holds responsibility for some if not all the added equipment continued failures because of the choices they make.

[racerjoe]

Thanks fire5er, I was starting to feel like an island. When you see several issues about the same problems and you tell your dealer and get no response,the factory should step up and find a fix. I had to go direct to Dometic to get my wireless themostat replaced. The factory basiclly ignored my request for help. I'll say it again,you buy your pull vehicle, and you only go to the dealer for repairs under warranty,they do not send you to every vendor to get it repaired.

[bsmeaton]

quote:Originally posted by racerjoe

Again, poor quality control at the factory !!!

Let me defend myself - Racerjoe's statement was poor quality control at the factory. Using my best judgement, I would say none of these problems had anything to do with QA on the floor of the production shop, or the transporter.

I agree completely with what you are saying fire5er - just trying to keep my statement in context.

[Exnavydiver]

Let me clarify a couple things here. The Micro/convection is not an Apollo, it is a Dometic, the DVD is an LG, the light fixtures that are defective are all chinese junk (without the sail). We didn't have our home dealer do the repairs as there was 10 inches of snow there when these items showed up. We didn't use the convection feature until we got to Fla and it never did get to temp. That item should have been picked up on the PDI as should have the regular oven which also doesn't reach the temp it is set at. Granted the DVD did work at first, it didn't start failing till about the 20th dvd, that couldn't have been found at PDI. But the floor, light fixtures both ovens and the counter should have been found at PDI and weren't. But if I ever have to check out another new rig it is going to take WAY more than the 3 hours alloted. Our home dealer is in Wisconsin and we are not going back till May but I was told by them that any Montana dealer should take care of these problems, this is true, but not always in a timely manner. The compartment latches are and always have been crap and I have yet to find a remedy for that other than keeping a half dozen replacements stowed somewhere in the rig... Dave and Betsy

[Fire5er]

bsmeaton I understand where you are coming from, but I really think Keystone needs to step up and recognize the enduring theme here is poor quality in the product the vendor is providing them and that they have to put their name on and thus their liability. There are just too many issues popping up with our units. Just like the numerous issues with the suspension spring shackles. I agree with snfexpress that there should be a NHTSA recall on this issue, and Keystone should be the one to take the lead. I know Keystone doesn’t manufacture the frames, axles, and suspension system on our units… but they are on their product and it is their product that may cause death or injury should this system catastrophically fail due to the shackle plates breaking. I had a shackle plate break the first day out with my less than two week old unit. And then I read here that many others have had are or having similar problems. Don’t get me wrong…I LOVE MY MONTANA 3400RL, but I just think that Keystone needs to do a better job of ensuring trusted and proven equipment. And when the equipment that they employ on their units fails help the owner with getting the issues corrected via their vendors.

[bsmeaton]

I agree totally Fire5er. It makes me sad to see all the trouble with Apollo ovens, DVD, frames, cabinets, etc.

I could never try to outguess the business, but I suspect the board meetings go something like this:

"Advisor - sir, we still have a 50% rate of return on the Apollo 1/2 time microwave "

"Boss - and what is Apollo doing about this? "

"Advisor - so far they have been able to keep up with the warranty and are doing so direct with the customers and dealers. They are hoping to introduce a new 23" model in October "

"Boss - whats my production run out with the current Apollo? "

"Advisor - We have 52,000 ovens in que, so the new oven won't show in production until mid 2009 on the Montana, Mountaineer, and Cougar "

"Boss - What is the customer base feedback say?"

"Advisor - Frustration sir, about 12% negative "

"Boss - What is Big Horn doing about it? "

"Advisor - Nothing sir, Big Horn still uses the Apollo in their two new floorplans introduced last month "

"Boss - Bottom line, what is the cost per unit to surplus the existing inventory of Apollo and switch to the new line now?

"Advisor - Considering engineering changes, procurement, and surplus return, approximately $136 per unit over 18 months, above the cost of the oven itself "

"Boss - And I would do this........why? "

"Advisor - As long as the manufacturer continues to resolve - there is no reason sir "

"Boss - Very well, lets move on to the new remote system you are all excited about! Bottom line, what is Big Horn doing and what are your projections for customer appeal and increased sales for the Montana line..............."

I think they operate the same way as the competitor.

[racerjoe]

Thats a great storyline.. Do you write for any sitcoms??( I amusingly ask) sounds like some of the production meetings I have been to.

[bsmeaton]

Thanks,
I should see if I can get a job while they are still on strike!

[richfaa]

example .......We did a over 8 hour PDI over two days before we signed any papers and drove out of the dealers lot. The 06 3400 had absolutely zero defects when we left the lot .Every single system had been checked for proper operation and worked perfectly.That was May 8th 2006.What followed was a string of problems. Apollo oven, 3 failures, Hot water tank failure Fridge Ckt board failure, Fire and meltdown at quartzsite, Leaking Hydraulic pump, Converter failure, All told over 50 problems large and small..we took the 3400 into the service center April of 07 with a list of 26 problems. I agree quality control leaves much to be desired....in the entire industry, just about all the manufacturers use the same vendors. While it is not Keystones fault the vendor provided item fails....Keystone selects the vendors and dictates the specifications as do all of the other manufacturers.

There is apparently little control or regulation of the RV industry and Brad's post above is, I will wager..close to very true. Much of the blame resides with us the consumer who will tolerate all of the above with little complaint and even resolve the issues ourselves because it is not.."convienient" to report the problem..

Keystone did resolve all our issues . Every rep at the service center we spoke to, usually under great stress(us that is) came to our rescue even in the barren desert of quartzsite we had a reply within a hour and a complete fix within 24 hours. We spent 4 days at the service center in April of 07 where the crew went over every inch of our 3400 and corrected problems we never reported.

Example.. Mike reported the "Shackle problem" only to find out many on this forum had the same problem..why had it not not been reported to NSTB long ago???How many who had the problem reported it to Keystone, Montana, NSTB????We had the occasion to talk to Aram at the Tampa RV show who was very aware of the Shackle problem (now) and was launching a investigation into the cause. It takes someone to bring the issues forceably to the attention of the manufacturer to get action.. This forum is a great tool to do just that and has done that..'The consumer as many have pointed out brought about change in the auto industry..I do not understand why the consumer tolerates the Rv issues..This consumer does not..We are on the phone or on the Computer on every failure large or small..the most recent a broken string on a day night shade..Called Keystone,,they know we had a problem..called the vendor..asked them why we had the failure ( they sent us a restring kit) It takes time..It is inconvenient, it is a pain in the butt..but if we all did the same....something might change.

[Mudchief]

Brad, after spending many years in the board room of a large company you are right on the mark.

[hazmic]

Why should any dealer have to contact the "factory" for repair/replace any thing that is defective. If it is broken or not proper then fix or replace it. Keystone dose get beat up on things that they do not make but is supplied by a the lowest bidder. Our car/truck dealer dose not have to contact the factory for every little repair. If Keystone has set this policy,then maybe they need to take another look at this. All it dose is make people mad or unhappy at their product. We pay a lot of money and should not have to put up with the hassle.

[TLightning]

The bottom line here is that while some have lots of problems, many many units are fine or have minor problems. Sure, if you read the posts here, Apollo ovens have serious issues...but in the big picture they are not doing badly at all based on the number of units in service.

Now if every Montana had the problems of Richfaa's...Keystone would be out of business.

[bsmeaton]

I agree with you Mickey -

Our Dealer fixed all of our issues, but they were few. The counter was pre-approved and even pre-shipped by Keystone following submittal of my pictures to the Dealer. Everything else was fixed without prior approval and the Service Rep said he may or may not get paid for all of it by Keystone, but that didn't matter. We were entitled to have it fixed. What that tells me is he has been in the business long enough to be able to predict what Keystone is going to cover and I get the benefit of having the work done as I need it.

This may not be the case with all Dealers. Our unsaid Dealer up north was burned a few times by Keystone for cost of repairs performed and wouldn't do anything without a confirmation from Keystone. Unfortunately, whatever happened to him in the past was probably 90% his lack of experience in the business that caused it. Just a guess.