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Old 10-22-2013, 11:44 AM   #21
richfaa
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Mrs. CountryGuy

Rich, you said:

according to Warranty claims the frame failure rate is less than 1.5%.

That is consistent with the number we were quoted back in 1990 when the frame on our TT lost it's camber.

I am not sure if I am impressed or not, that the number has not changed in over 20 years.
IMO 1,5% is not a good number .That seems high to me???? and if it has been consistent for 20 years that means they are happy with that number and are doing nothing about the problem.
 
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:47 AM   #22
richfaa
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I agree on the ineffectiveness of the Mor Ryde pin box. We were beat to death on the trip to Florida and popped a couple of walls. We will be replacing it. Not sure with what yet.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:37 PM   #23
Phil P
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Hi

I have now just over 60,000 miles on the trailer and 108,000 on the TV. The picture on my signature both truck and trailer had less the 1,000 miles.

While I have had numerous problems with this trailer the frame has been minor with only 2 failures. Both of them aft of the rear axle.

The main load carrying structure that would be subject to excessive loading from rough roads would be the area from the back of the generator compartment to the pin box.

My understanding of the post I have read concerning frame flex involves this area.

Some post indicated that the “gusset” on each side of the front frame in front of the generator compartment had failed. They didn’t say whether the weld failed or the gusset failed just back of the weld. A failure just back of the weld and parallel to it indicates metal not strong enough after the carbon transfer to a proper weld, this is poor engineering. If the failure was in the weld indicates poor welding.

My pin box is the standard Mor/ryde pin box without any shock dampening provision. I have always used the Teflon pad instead of grease. I don’t think this would make much difference in the loads imposed on the trailer frame. The pin box with the shock absorber in it would defiantly improve the effect of shock loads.

The trailer will only get about 200 miles a month for the winter but I hope to go into Canada this summer.

Phil P
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:22 PM   #24
kerry
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Bingo, I've had a Trailer Saver hitch ( TSLB2H ) for several years now. It's heavy but I love it. Along with the MoRyde kingpin, it makes for a whle lot smoother tow, especially on the Turnpike.
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:48 AM   #25
MIMF
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Bingo, I too, believe you are on the right track! I have made up my mind that the next 5th wheel we purchase WILL have the TrailAir Tri-glide worked in on the deal. If the dealer I work with or if Keystone will not install it during construction, we will move on!! That is how strong my opinion is of that pin box! It is not because I worked at Lippert at one time but because, of my experience with TrailAir products. That is why I also have the TrailAir Equa-flex equalizers between the axles. I am sure there are other products on the market that will do the same thing. The fact remains that the old Challenger is still in one piece and that a half roll of toilet paper setting on top of the holder for 2 or 3 hours of Indiana roads is proof enough for me!!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:31 AM   #26
jlb27537
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Something that is not mentioned. The ones with frame flex, do they have the long pin assy or the shorter one? Or does it matter?

The 12" frame vs a 10" frame is not where the failures are occurring. On my 2014 it has the 12" frame but the frame from the steps forward are 6" I beam.

We have towed ours about 3,000 miles. Now, when you walk around in the bed room area the floor makes a creaking sound. Obviously something is moving around.

Our last 5th wheel was a Newmar, 36' on a 10" I beam frame made by Fabex. It weighed 16,500lbs with 3,500 on the pin. There was NEVER a issue with the frame.

The 1.5% fail rate is awful and would not be acceptable in any business except the RV industry.

Jim
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:10 AM   #27
mtheo
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Bingo I think you are right. I have have the 5th airborne hitch and air bags on the rear of the truck. Between the two there is very little jaring.
In my opinion Keystone should be installing air ride on all there trailers, 1.5% failer rate is to high and who knows how many have never been reported.
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:38 AM   #28
Artemus Gordon
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Not a gear head. Where do I look for the broken welds! Keep it simple I am somewhat slow at these things. Do you have to remove covering at hitch, etc. Thanks
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:57 AM   #29
bncinwv
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Unfortunately to inspect thoroughly, the answer is yes, the bottom skin of the nose needs to come off. You can see some of the framework inside the battery and generator compartments as well.
Bingo
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:18 PM   #30
jswharton
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The accountant in me says that Lippet has a good idea of the frame flex issue. A quick response of 1.5% failure rate seems to indicate they track this stuff. They gather information on every frame warranty claim. I would want to know the 5th wheel build date, how many miles traveled, pin type, hitch type, etc, etc. it would seem that with all the frames they build that there would be some type of predictive values that increase the probability of a frame issue.

The question I asked myself was if I put on a pin box and hitch that would absorb the most amount of chucking and vertical forces would I avoid the frame flex issue? While that seems very logical and makes a lot of common sense, I/we don't have any real statistics to support the conclusion. If we did I for one would go out and buy the equipment regardless of the brand or builder of the frame. Question, what is the failure rate for the DRV frames, I would be suspicious if it were zero.

Lippert is in the cross eyes because they build soooooo many frames, DRV build sX amount of frames and Lippert builds 50X times the #? Whatever the # it's a lot more.

So I'm confused. Why does one frame fail and another doesn't? I was under the impression that the Montana Lippert frames were mechanically welded, does anyone know if that is true? And I too have been told that the weld is stronger than the material?

There are just so many variables, drives me nuts, even thought it is a short trip!

What Bingo describes makes too much common sense to me. Maybe that is what Lippert developed the pin box they did?

So what should we do, spent $5K on a new pin box and hitch or hop we're not part of the 1.5%?
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:02 PM   #31
jlb27537
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Scott, Just enjoy that new rig. If the frame fails, just get it fixed. I have other uses for 5K to prevent damage to a Lippert frame.

My thought is that it should be strong enough to stand the forces it sees on today's roads. On the Keystone website they show a trailer being pulled with a class 6 truck thru some bumps. I am for one, not going to worry about it. Now 5 miles on a test track and 15K on real roads are different. Also when a trailer is pulled down a test track is it really taken apart to look for stress problems. I would think the answer is NO.

Like a earlier poster said, you pay your money and take your chances.

Jim
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:10 PM   #32
richfaa
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Also reality. How many Rv'ers with Lippert frames are running over weight .RVSEF the folks that weigh campers do have documentation that states that 60% or more of rigs they weighed were over weight in one or more areas. Check out their web site.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:15 PM   #33
bncinwv
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I am of the opinion that if I can spend $2500 to protect an investment that is worth many times that, it bears considering. Why did I spend $500 on an Electrical Monitoring system, why did I spend $600 for an Autoformer, because I felt that I looked upon it as necessary insurance. I may never need either of those items, but I have them if circumstances dictate their need (I have had need multiple times for both, by the way). Each and every item that we purchase is researched and weighed as to whether it is worth spending money on. My use of the Montana is strictly for pleasure at the present time, and the times that I want and need it for pleasure, I want it to be available. Choices as to what is needed or wanted are personal choices, I would rather make a choice in advance to head off a potential problem than suffer the results of the problem. My opinion only. As a side note, both DW and I suffer from chronic back problems and a lot of our decisions are based on chances to ease those symptoms. This resulted in a sleep number bed, multiple attempts at camping chairs, and it will result in an air hitch to hopefully ease the everpresent symptoms that are amplified on our fine roadway and interstate system that we travel on!
Bingo
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:47 PM   #34
Irlpguy
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Jib27537 makes some good points, and we are letting the RV manufacturers off the hook by continuing to purchase these units that are not designed to handle the rigors of travel on our highways.

As far as I am concerned a 1.5% failure rate is much too high and as Jim states it would not be acceptable in other industries. Consider what a good number of folks on this forum have spent in aftermarket products to feel safe pulling these units down the road, everything from the pin box back to the cheap hitch put on some models has been replaced with aftermarket products costing many thousands of dollars.

I am one who refuses to spend thousands of dollars to soften the ride because my frame is not adequately engineered and built. Nor will I spend more thousands of dollars for any number of suspension upgrades as many have and are doing. We should not have to do this.

I also agree that the change to a 12” frame will have no effect on the front end frame flex. My 2012 has the 10” main frame and the drop frame is 8”, I am not sure if Jim’s reference to a 6” frame forward of the steps is a typo or not, but surely the drop frame is not now 6”.

My brother in law has a SOB built in Canada by an outfit now out of business, it came with IS suspension, hydraulic disk brakes and many other features that are not even options on the Montana’s. His 2007 will outlast any 2007 Keystone product and most certainly the newer models by a country mile.
His unit along with all others in that model year had a frame problem with minor cracking on some units, every owner was sent a notice to have their unit inspected along with very specific instructions on where to look and what to do if the crack was evident. That folks was a company accepting responsibility for a problem that did not affect every unit but nonetheless everyone was notified of the possibility.

My sister and BIL like our floor plan but would not trade straight across for their 6 year old SOB.

Now I ask you, of these two units, which one is going to be in better shape and worth more money in 15 years, it will not be my Montana that is for sure.

Unless I lived within an hours driving distance of Goshen In I would not be buying any of these new models, I bought one Keystone product, I will have to be convinced that the industry in general and Keystone in particular have addressed existing problems and have not created new ones in the never ending drive to draw in the consumer before I would spend another dollar on another RV.

Richfa your point on overweight certainly has merit, and may very well be a factor in some cases, however I suffered and still do from frame flex, I have no broken welds and my unit has never been overweight, I have weigh scale slips to prove what my weight is. I do not drive like a maniac and have pulled or driven an RV from Mexico to Alaska.

Some of us have stretched the limits of our finances and retirement funds available to us in purchasing our dream units, for some of us the thousands of dollars in cost of all of those things some folks feel are necessary, would simply mean we have no money left to travel and enjoy our expensive but poorly engineered trailer. That I am afraid is a fact for a lot of people, including ourselves.



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Old 10-23-2013, 11:06 PM   #35
Phil P
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Irlpgy

Very good post.

Phil P
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Old 10-24-2013, 02:09 AM   #36
gkidsdlite
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While reading these posts, a question came to my mind! Shocking I know! I drive a semi for a living and also read on here about airbags on the TV but never on the trailers. Some shippers look for trucklines that have airide trailers. Why doesn't Keystone have airide as an option or a standard on these trailers? I know its not free, but it should solve this problem for the most part, IMO.
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Old 10-24-2013, 02:56 AM   #37
Tom S.
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

Jib27537 makes some good points, and we are letting the RV manufacturers off the hook by continuing to purchase these units that are not designed to handle the rigors of travel on our highways.

As far as I am concerned a 1.5% failure rate is much too high and as Jim states it would not be acceptable in other industries. Consider what a good number of folks on this forum have spent in aftermarket products to feel safe pulling these units down the road, everything from the pin box back to the cheap hitch put on some models has been replaced with aftermarket products costing many thousands of dollars.

I am one who refuses to spend thousands of dollars to soften the ride because my frame is not adequately engineered and built. Nor will I spend more thousands of dollars for any number of suspension upgrades as many have and are doing. We should not have to do this.

I also agree that the change to a 12” frame will have no effect on the front end frame flex. My 2012 has the 10” main frame and the drop frame is 8”, I am not sure if Jim’s reference to a 6” frame forward of the steps is a typo or not, but surely the drop frame is not now 6”.

My brother in law has a SOB built in Canada by an outfit now out of business, it came with IS suspension, hydraulic disk brakes and many other features that are not even options on the Montana’s. His 2007 will outlast any 2007 Keystone product and most certainly the newer models by a country mile.
His unit along with all others in that model year had a frame problem with minor cracking on some units, every owner was sent a notice to have their unit inspected along with very specific instructions on where to look and what to do if the crack was evident. That folks was a company accepting responsibility for a problem that did not affect every unit but nonetheless everyone was notified of the possibility.

My sister and BIL like our floor plan but would not trade straight across for their 6 year old SOB.

Now I ask you, of these two units, which one is going to be in better shape and worth more money in 15 years, it will not be my Montana that is for sure.

Unless I lived within an hours driving distance of Goshen In I would not be buying any of these new models, I bought one Keystone product, I will have to be convinced that the industry in general and Keystone in particular have addressed existing problems and have not created new ones in the never ending drive to draw in the consumer before I would spend another dollar on another RV.

Richfa your point on overweight certainly has merit, and may very well be a factor in some cases, however I suffered and still do from frame flex, I have no broken welds and my unit has never been overweight, I have weigh scale slips to prove what my weight is. I do not drive like a maniac and have pulled or driven an RV from Mexico to Alaska.

Some of us have stretched the limits of our finances and retirement funds available to us in purchasing our dream units, for some of us the thousands of dollars in cost of all of those things some folks feel are necessary, would simply mean we have no money left to travel and enjoy our expensive but poorly engineered trailer. That I am afraid is a fact for a lot of people, including ourselves.
What a bunch of contradictions! You won't spend thousands more for IS to help the problem, yet you laud your BIL who did essentially that when he bought his trailer. The mfg. of his trailer didn't throw those items in for free, did they? If so, it explains why they went out of business. I long ago came to the conclusion that you would be far happier selling you trailer and buying another brand. You must spend at least an hour a day here complaining about how bad these trailers are. Maybe you can find a used one like your BIL has.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:16 AM   #38
richfaa
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We each need to understand the RV industry and that requires a lot of homework. Once you understand how these things are built and what problems they are likely to have you may take up another pastime.. These are Rv's that are intended to travel down the road yet we all agree that they can not stand the stress of doing that. What the???? We will have to put another 5 to 6K $$ into this new 2013 Big Sky till we are sort of confideent that it can travel down the road with out something falling apart.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:53 AM   #39
Irlpguy
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Tom S.
What a bunch of contradictions! You won't spend thousands more for IS to help the problem, yet you laud your BIL who did essentially that when he bought his trailer. The mfg. of his trailer didn't throw those items in for free, did they? If so, it explains why they went out of business. I long ago came to the conclusion that you would be far happier selling you trailer and buying another brand. You must spend at least an hour a day here complaining about how bad these trailers are. Maybe you can find a used one like your BIL has.
Actually the unit purchased by my BIL was their top model and although they certainly added to the initial cost, the IS and Hydraulic disk brakes were standard equipment, they were not options.
Most importantly they recognized a problem with the frame and instead of saying "You are the first to have that problem" they addressed it with each and every owner.

The company is out of business because it produced few units, they were quality built and like other small manufacturers of the day they could not compete with the all of the "build 10 a day manufacturers"

The fact that they recognized the need for upgraded suspension on their largest units set them apart from most if not all of the high volume manufacturers like Keystone.

Quote:
quoteriginally posted by Richfa
We each need to understand the RV industry and that requires a lot of homework. Once you understand how these things are built and what problems they are likely to have you may take up another pastime.. These are Rv's that are intended to travel down the road yet we all agree that they can not stand the stress of doing that. What the???? We will have to put another 5 to 6K $$ into this new 2013 Big Sky till we are sort of confideent that it can travel down the road with out something falling apart.
I would prefer to look at the original cost of a Big Sky with these added improvements already installed and be able to say to myself, "I just cannot afford this unit" rather than have these expenses pop up after I have purchased what is supposed to be the top of the line product.
These are all units that will be towed over varying conditions on our highways, they should not be falling apart while doing so. Keystone is well aware there are frame problems, they either must address this issue with Lippert or build the remainder of the structure in such a way that it will not fall apart due to the limitations of the frames.

Since that is not going to happen and allow them keep their profits up, we are stuck with the same old, same old...
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Old 10-26-2013, 02:45 AM   #40
Jewels
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You all have got to know just how ridiculous this all sounds! You spend a lot of dollars on a trailer that you "think" is quality, then you find out the tires are bad, the walls and trim fall off when moving said trailer, the frame is in jeopardy of failing, the pin is trash and should be upgraded, the bed stinks, and the list goes on and on!

What the heck? I haven't yet traveled with mine and I am ready to sell NOW! If when I leave in November and things start falling apart, I believe that I will unhook it and leave it for Keystone to retrieve! I am just about sick of reading of all the problems as it just highlights what I am getting ready to experience, unless I rebuild the trailer from the frame up! Makes me also wonder why many of you that have been on this site for some time continue to buy this brand - just doesn't make sense?

It all makes me sad that I invested in anything that is branded "Keystone".
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