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Old 10-28-2007, 03:02 PM   #21
Longwell
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I think that reading the posts made on this subject over the last year would really save a lot of typing and a lot of forum space, but I guess that it needs to be gone over every so often for, (1) the new folks that haven't researched the archives and, (2) the hope that something new will come up before the "thermometer" hits the "lock the thread" level.
Being an optimist, I follow the above (2) (hope) and keep reading and reading and reading . . .
Larry
 
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Old 10-31-2007, 10:40 AM   #22
Bill and Lisa
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I belong to the I didn't know when I brought my truck what I know now group. Sure I looked at the Trailer GVWR and checked the towing guide to make sure my truck was rated to pull more weight than that. Thought that was all I had to be careful of. I was surprised to learn about GAWRs and that the GVWR of the truck was not the sum of the two axle ratings. I admit that I exceed the weight rating of my truck for the GVWR. I used to exceed the rear axle GAWR....I don't anymore. I am now much more aware of weight and actively try and keep it down. I will never get below my GVWR of 9200 with this Montana....and I am not happy or proud that I have towed so far without killing myself. If I were back at the beginning I would have worked the numbers better and either ended up in a 1 ton or maybe a 3/4 ton but with the extended cab vice the crew cab if the numbers worked out better. I watch my speed and constantly remind myself I am running heavy. I just can not afford to sell this truck and get a different one at this time so I try and be as safe and careful as I can. period. I don't worry as much about the everyday steady state towing, I worry about the emergency response and handling if I end up in a situation where things are anything but normal. I pulled my TT originally without a weight distributing hitch but soon made the move to one. On that owners forum I always recommend that folks use one, not that they will notice a difference pulling day to day but in those emergency situations.

We all hope never to be in those situations. My second day towing a 5th wheel EVER I had the rear wheel of the truck come off while traveling 65 MPH on the PA turnpike. The trailer did get a scratch but it was just a scratch and no people were hurt. Blessed is what we were and prepared. One of the first things when I got the truck 9 days before getting the Montana was to practice activating the trailer brakes manually without having to look. My previous TV, while having the same style controller had it mounted much higher and on the opposite side of the steering column than my 2500 did. Being able to reach down and brake the trailer allowed me to keep control of the combined rig and safely get to the side of the road. I try not to forget what can happen out there on the road every time I get behind the wheel. I WANT to be as safe as possible. If I can't get under the OEM limits with my current set up I will strive to be as close as I can until I can make the neccessary changes to meet the limits. Pleae don't take my decisions/choices as an endorsement or encouragement to disregard the limits, but rather as something that you should strive to meet and failure to do so is at your own peril. (not that being within limits will assure that nothing bad will ever happen to you ut it does minimize the chance.)
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Old 10-31-2007, 02:11 PM   #23
bsmeaton
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Bill,

Well put and refreshing!

I don't think the issue here has ever been who tows with what, rather it is what advise is given to others when they ask. I think we owe our new members the best advice possible, without bias for what we have gotten away with personally. The issue is confusing enough! Folks are out there spending a lot of money, lets do them a favor and tell them what they need to hear instead of what they would like to hear.

I towed a boat behind our old Monty for years. Many peopled asked me about it and I strived to give the right answer. I remained honest and always told them I was over length, beyond the capacity of the hitch, and it was only legal in a few states. I told them it actually towed well, but I learned it was putting tremendous side stress on my frame so I quit doing it. I just told someone the other day, even though it wasn't what they "wanted" to hear. I could have just said it was perfectly safe because I got away with it for years, but that would not have been honest advise for them.

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Old 10-31-2007, 03:55 PM   #24
rogue
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What I don't understand is why the industry dosen't tell people what they ned to figure in concise language and figures. Whats so hard about telling them the maximum axle weight and the total pin weight that can not be exceeded. Instead they give dry weight and dry pin weight. And max overall weight.

I'm in the similar position as Bill. I could not see buying a new truck and hav it sitting out in the elements all year when I have a garage. My garage will fit a short bed (just bearly by 6") and not a long bed. The 3500 does not come in short bed. The 2500 with factory pin weight put me under the 9200# rate by 300#. Now that I have it loaded and did the actual weight I'm over by 400#. Would I like the 3500 to be within spec, YES. Am I going to trade in a new (June 2007) truck now, can't afford the loss. Will try to adjust as much cargo as possible to put more on the 5er axle and less on the truck.

Agree totally with bsmeaton, we need to do the best we can to help the new and prespective folks from making our mistakes.
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Old 11-21-2007, 08:22 AM   #25
Waynem
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Hello all MOC Affectionados.
I am still confused, but in my case that is not surprising. I did a search on GCVWR and this thread is the only one that came up. So if anyone has information to share, either PM me or post it please.

I have a 2005 F350 DRW King Ranch, Crew Cab, Long Bed, "light pick-up". The only information I can find on the stickers are these:

Combined Weight of occupands and cargo: 4759
GVWR: 13000
FGAWR: 6000
RGAWR: 9000

I have the 3400RL Montana and Keystone says:
Shipping weight: 11800
Carrying weight: 3940
Hitch: 2000

So my question is: What the heck am I looking at?

Semper Fi!
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Old 11-21-2007, 11:47 AM   #26
richfaa
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"Combined Weight of occupands and cargo: 4759: for starters if that is the weight of that truck, with folks aboard and loaded for camping ..it is really light. I had a very similar 05-V-10 and it was a lot heaver than that.,.a lot heaver.
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:08 PM   #27
mtheo
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Well, for all those what worship those numbers, there is no standard by which they are set. Each Manufacture uses differnet standards to reach there thier ratings. I did read last week that all the biggies are getting together to come up with a standard that all will be tested by.
How do some 1/2 tons get a 10,000 tow rating???

Yes, Mine is close and yes I do think about it when towing, but only a little. I almost never travel over 60-62 mph and alway leave lots and lots a room in front of me when in traffic.
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:51 PM   #28
MacDR50
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I have to agree with those who suggest doing your homework. The truth is that it is a confusing array of information out there and trying to make sense of it is not that easy. There are plenty of sites that give advice and most of them are sincere. As always the devil is in the lack of details. For example, every reputable site says pin weight should be 15-25% of actual loaded weight of the 5ver. If it less tha 15 or more than 25 you are asking for control problems and may be overloading either the TV or the trailer suspension respectively. So why does Keystone give such a light pin weight in their published specs? Perhaps the marketing department has the answer?

The reason 5ver tow ratings are higher than those for tag TT's for a given TV is that the pin weight is carried by the truck and not dragging behind it on the TT axles. TV payload capacities are calculated by manufacturers after subtracting for full tanks and one 150lb driver. GCWR according to some people is net of pin weight. The weight officials in my province tell me it is a simple addition of both the GVWR's of the 5vr and TV. That is the way they calculate it for commercial transport trucks. I checked with several officials and all gave the same answer.

There is another post in the forum announcing that the truck manfacturers are going to set standards for determining tow ratings. That is one part of the puzzle. The other is getting RV manufacturers to publish better specifications on loaded units including realistic pin weights.

I asked if anyone had ever weighed a 3585SA because that pin weight is critical to determing a SRW or DRW 1 ton. There is no way I can get within weight ratings either for GVWR or GCWR with any 3/4 ton made today. Redistributing loads doesn't change the GCWR overweight and using this method to get pin weight down may be even more risky than an overloaded TV.

Just as an aside. You will never be weighed towing anything in this province unless you are a commercial vehicle. However, if you are involved in a traffic accident the police may check your weight ratings. If you appear to be exceeding any rating on either the TV or the 5ver vehicle safety plates you may find yourself with a whole lot of expensive legal problems. If that accident causes a personal injury it can get really nasty.

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Old 11-21-2007, 01:13 PM   #29
TLightning
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As a relative newcomer (but long time hauler), let me throw out some facts learned by lots and lots of study and research:

- GM likes to say the 2500HD has a max pin rating of 3000. What they don't tell you is that NO diesel can carry that much PW, that rating is for the 6.0L gasser only. The 900 to 1000 extra weight of the D/A comes off the cargo capacity.
- The 'curb weight' on the sticker is like the empty weight on the Montana sticker...worthless. The only way to find the real empty weight of a newer model truck is to find the cargo capacity from the Tire and Loading Information sticker on the left rear door post. Take that number and subtract it from the GVWR...there is your empty weight.
- SRW one ton vs 3/4 tons for GM products. The difference in GVWR is only 700 (9900/9200). By the time you add the extra weight of a one ton plus the long bed (GM does not make a short bed one ton) you have lost half that 700 lb gain.
- Fords are very very heavy. The dealers like to rave about the 3/4 ton Ford's 10000 GVWR. However, the 10k Ford has within 100 lbs the same CARGO CAPACITY as the 9.2k GM.
- When talking diesel pickups, you can ignore tow ratings. Although a bit different, only a few hundred pounds. Any diesel will pull any Montana. The difference is in the ability to carry the pin weight.
- Using my truck as an example, I have a pw of 2600 and carry an extra 1000 of things in the truck (hitch, bigger fuel tank, Montana spare, passengers, lots of tools, animal and his things, travel information (manuals/books/gps, etc), cooler and no telling what else. My total load of 3600 in the truck greatly exceeds any 3/4 ton truck. I drive a dually...don't really want one, but that's what it takes to carry all my stuff and the D/W's choice of a 5th wheel.
- I have lots of 'real' numbers I have taken from truck lots regarding various capacities. If anybody would like them, I'd be happy to share...send me a PM/Email.
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:15 PM   #30
bsmeaton
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Rich,

I believe Wayne was saying his carrying capacity is 4759. He never calls out his actual truck weight other than GVWR of 13000 for that Big Bertha which sounds about right. Using those numbers, his truck weighs 8,241 lbs, also about right compared to my SRW at 7,840 lbs.

Wayne,

The GCWR is the total weight your truck is designed to tow including the weight of the truck itself. Assuming you have a stroker, your GCWR is 23,500 lbs (or 26,000 lbs if you have the 4:30 gear ratio). For this particular category, your dually does not buy you anything, just torque and gear ratio apply. The only way to really find out how close you are is to weigh the whole rig. You can't just combine GVWR numbers or you will be over (15,500 Montana and 13,000 Truck = 28,500) and it would be really difficult to load both vehicles to the maximum GVWR unless you hauled concrete with them. My fully loaded rig weighs in at 21740 including water, fuel, comsumables, and I have almost all of the heavy options.

Mark,

You could be right, who knows. The same problem happened with horsepower ratings back in the 60's before it was regulated independantly. Having the best means bigtime bucks for that manufacturer for that year, and you can almost count on the competitor "one-upping" you the next year. I think they probably watch over each other very well given the dollars at stake.

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Old 11-23-2007, 05:12 PM   #31
Waynem
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Mark,
You are correct. The combined carrying capacity of People and cargo is 4759#.

I have a stroker (6.0L) with 4:10 ratio. I have seen that figure, 23,500, somewhere on the internet or a manual (Not one I have) so that sounds about right. The next time I pull it home to head out again, I'm going to run it over the scales. Thanks for all the information everyone.

Semper Fi!
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Old 11-25-2007, 04:04 PM   #32
Waynem
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I found the 23,500 in the supplement guide to the owner's manual. It was hidden from view and I overlooked it. No where on any docuen of door post does it say what the weight of the vehicle is. I'll run it over a scale and get those figures.

My yearly registration is due, and the papers I got in the mail, (I just bought the truck used about 3 months ago) state that th carrying capacity is 2000#. I guess when they see 1-ton, they automatically give it a 2000 pound rating. In actuality my cargo and passenger carrying capacity is 4759#. I'm going to bite the bullet and pay the piper and have it increased when I re-register it this comming week.

Oddly enough, the GVWR states 13,000#. I think I'm surpassing that by some margin. Once all the weighing is done - we'll see. Thanks for all the replies.

semper Fi!
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Old 11-25-2007, 05:02 PM   #33
rickfox
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As has been previously mentioned, it seems that just like bell-bottom pants, this topic seems to come up every so often. And I am one of those who has a 3/4 ton truck that is about 400# (4.3%) over GVWR when I am fully loaded. My wife really loved the 3400 so we bought it. But since I have not paid off the 2003 truck yet, we stayed with the 3/4 and mananged as best we could. By the numbers, our TV should be a 1 ton.

But it is not the 400# that has most concerned me. It's the fact that even though I'm within the 22,000# GCWR, the whole mess seems to take forever to stop! My most scarry situations have been those times I felt I was never going to get stopped in time. I'm not trying to take this thread off in a different direction, just trying to say we should all be just as concerned about stopping as we are about moving our loads down the road. Too bad Montanna currently does not have a disk brake option.
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Old 11-26-2007, 03:58 AM   #34
Waynem
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Registered the TV today. Increased the cargo capacity to 4759. Increased the yearly from $94 to $124. (Don't y'all love Texas?) I can live with that. If for some reason I get stopped and checked, I know the 4759 will handle the pin/cargo weight.

Rickfox, Don't think it's off topic as weight has everything to do with stopping and choosing the right combination is important. (IMHO)

Semper Fi!
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Old 11-26-2007, 06:56 AM   #35
TLightning
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Waynem...To find the weight of your truck, get the maximum cargo capacity off the Tire and Loading Information sticker on the left rear door pillar or door post. Find the GVWR off the other sticker usually on the driver's door or door post. Both stickers have to be there...mandated by federal law in 2004. Subtract those two numbers and you have your empty truck weight.
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:49 AM   #36
Waynem
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TLightning

So the GVWR is 13000 and the Cargo capacity is 4759, so the truck weighs 8241???

Semper Fi!
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:46 PM   #37
TLightning
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Waynem

TLightning

So the GVWR is 13000 and the Cargo capacity is 4759, so the truck weighs 8241???

Semper Fi!
If the label says the cargo capcity is 4759 that's correct. BE SURE you use the weight on the label and not the curb weight or a weight from the internet or a brochure. 4759 sounds a bit high.
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