3/4 ton or 1 ton?

[sreigle]

For some time now I have been saying the current crop of 3/4 ton trucks has seriously narrowed the gap between 3/4 and 1 ton. So much so that it is no longer accurate to make a blanket statement that a 1 ton is better than a 3/4 ton. I do believe that in any one brand and model, all else such as engine, transmission, tires, rear axle ratio being the same, the 1 ton will many times have better numbers.

But today's 3/4 tons in several cases have better numbers than yesterday's 1 tons. The possible exception is the 1 ton will probably still have a bit more payload, although that gap has narrowed considerably also.

So, I guess it's time for me to post some numbers. I wish I still had all the numbers as the absence of some will likely draw some criticism. But so be it.

First, all trucks listed below are diesel and are single rear wheel, 4x4, 3.73 axle. A dually will have more payload capacity. That's a given. None of mine have been dually so duallies are not shown here.

Also, when my laptop died recently I lost my notes so some of the figures are from memory. Where I'm not positive you'll see xxx in the number.

I'd like to compare numbers for our current and prior two trucks.

Truck 1: 2003 Ford F350 1 ton diesel supercab shortbed 4x4 automatic, 3.73 axle.

Truck 2: 2005 Ford F250 3/4 ton diesel crewcab shortbed 4x4 automatic, 3.73 axle.

Truck 3: 2007 Dodge 3500 1 ton diesel MegaCab shortbed 4x4 automatic, 3.73 axle.

GVWR:
2003 F350 - 9,900
2005 F250 - 10,000
2007 3500 - 10,100 (4.10 axle takes it to 10,400)

Tow Rating:
2003 F350 - 14,xxx (I think it was 14,200)
2005 F250 - 15,400
2007 3500 - 13,150 (4.10 axle takes it to 15,100) (dually is 13,450/15,450 respective to axle)

GCWR:
2003 F350 - 20,000
2005 F250 - 23,000
2007 3500 - 21,000 (23,000 with 4.10 axle) no changes for dually.

Payload per door sticker:
2003 F350 - don't know. I don't think it had this on the sticker in 2003
2005 F250 - 2,3xx
2007 3500 - 2,577

Some of those who insist a 3/4 ton is insufficient for a Montana state the Ford is heavier. Here's the weights per the title.
2003 - don't know
2005 F250 - 6,920
2007 3500 - 7,291

I spoke with Ford parts people, Ford service technicians, and a retired Ford diesel engineer (a friend). The only difference between the F250 and the F350 is the F350 has one more leaf in the rear springs. Air bags provided the additional suspension capacity on our F250. The F350 has some larger tire size options as well but this is based on the standard tire sizes.

If these were airplanes that will crash and burn on takeoff if a couple hundred pounds overweight, then I'd be a whole lot more concerned about weight. But thousands and thousands have put on many, many miles and we just are not hearing about accidents due to being overweight. It just isn't happening.

This post is not an attempt to say don't worry about being overweight. That is something everyone should consider. And then make a decision based on their level of comfort. I would caution everyone to give weight serious consideration in your truck and fifthwheel purchase.

My truck is overloaded according to the numbers and it's a 1 ton. Even if it were a dually it would still be overloaded with our Montana. But we've never experienced a failure of any kind related to weight nor have we even seen any unusual tire wear. Nor have I ever experienced a moment where I felt there was any question about control. The 4.10 axle on the Dodge has higher numbers. In time I will find out if the 3.73 differential can handle it or not. I've not heard of failures in this area.

I am posting this to get some facts on the table. I am not trying to start a war here. I ask our moderators that if this thread turns into a war, delete it.

[bncinwv]

Repeat after me: I will not comment, I will not comment, I will not comment. Phew, that was tougher than I thought!!! All in fun,
Bingo

[mallardjusted]

Steve,

No doubt all these trucks can pull/carry/etc more than the specs call for. But, if someone is buying new, I would recommend they map into the fifth-wheels parameters if possible. The price difference when buying new is minimal.

That is why we had upgraded our truck. We had a 99 F-250 PSD SC, and the listed Payload was approx 2100 lbs. When I looked at the new 2005 F-250 PSD CC's, the payload would have been around 2400lbs after options were accounted for. Upgrading to the F-350 was only a few hundred dollars more, and we now have over 3600lbs payload. And our normal payload tow weight is approx 3300lbs(pin weight, people, hitch wt, tools, etc).

I guess it's what everyone is confortable with. We could have kept the older truck (it towed the 5er just fine, although the newer Tow Command package is not something I could do without now), but I liked not worrying about whether I was going over any of the listed ratings (payload, GVW, tow wt, etc).

I still would recommend that if someone has doubts about going over any of the ratings, that they check with their insurance company to find out what their opinion might be.

[sreigle]

Matt, I think I was trying to convey the same thing you just said. You notice we went with a 3500 also. For the same reason you did. It doesn't cost hardly any more to get better ratings by going with the 1 ton.

The other thing I was trying to say is that the newer 3/4 tons have ratings higher than many older 1 tons. Therefore it's no longer accurate to make a blanket statement saying 1 ton is better. It's true when all else is equal but is not correct as a blanket statement.

And I also was trying to say that on the Ford (I'm not sure on the others) the only thing different is the springs. Adding airbags does not change the numbers on the stickers. It only changes functionality of the rear suspension.

This is a very hard topic to explain and get across and I don't think I did it very well. I hope this helps a little. Thanks for the reply. You are correct in your statements in my opinion. With your payload of 3600, it must be a dually? Or did the SRW F350 in 2005 have that high a payload?

[Tom Gina 06]

Steve pretty impressive numbers the only thing that I like with my 1 ton is the added insurance of the duals. I always felt that my 3/4 ton with air bags handled my 3400 OK but the tire issue is where my personal comfort level comes to play. After just finishing a 2000 mile trip to SD and back I really liked the extra stability provided by the duals.

Tom

[sreigle]

I forgot to mention that I spoke with our insurance agent and our attorney about 4 years ago. The insurance agent said they would pay but they might then cancel me because of being overweight if that had anything to do, or was construed as having something to do, with an accident.

Our attorney said the numbers are guidelines and have no legal status (private vehicles only). Each state has its laws regarding weights that we all may be subject to and that's been discussed here before. That's in the U.S. I hear from our Canadian friends that may differ in that country.

I also understand your comfort with the numbers and the dually. IF it didn't conflict with our lifestyle, our exploration preferences, then we would have gone dually for the same reason. Or if I felt it was a safety issue. As you said, it's the individual's comfort level. I realize I won't convince anyone not to buy a dually nor would I even want to try. Dually is good. I just feel my SRW is good enough even though not as good as a dually in terms of payload capacity. I risk dmage to those parts carrying the weight. Fortunately in many tens of thousands of miles there's been no sign of a problem or I'd have to change my thinking.

[mallardjusted]

Steve,

We have the SRW F-350 CC 4x4 LB. Ford's 2005 pdf specs say the max payload is 4000lbs (same as 2007), but I'm assuming some of our truck's options reduced that to the lower amount. Actually, I just went outside and looked at the cert sticker, and is says 3552 lbs payload.

I certainly agree that the newer trucks have upped the ante for carrying capacities. But, I'm not sure what the lowest pin weights are for the Montanas this year - I'm assuming most actual payloads (pin + people + hitch + normal junk we carry in the trunk) are still going to map into 1-ton SRW specs (2600 to 3600+ lbs)?? As you said, it's somewhat hard to explain - and sometimes (many times??) the truck sales people aren't aware of it!!!

[stiles watson]

The only difference between my 2003 F250 and a stock superduty F350 SRW is the sticker since I added the extra leaf spring. That's why I call it my stealth 1-ton. What I am saying is validated by Ford's own PRINTED information.

[sreigle]

Thanks, Matt. That's an impressive number for a SRW. Mine is certainly well below that at 2577.

[richfaa]

Trucks capacity change near every year. I would think you need to look at todays trucks and todays campers. The spec's are clearly posted on the truck or can be acquired from the manufacturer. After understanding the specs of both the camper and the truck the choice is yours....Do NOT forget PIN WEIGHT.What always mystified me was that if the 3/4 ton and the 1 ton can be exactly the same and it is so easy for the consumer to know that....Why do the manufacturers make both.. ??? does not make good sense...

[stiles watson]

Rickfaa,

You are exactly right. It confused me. Most of the Ford produced data for 2003 is found in charts with the heading F250/F350 indicating the data is for both. Same trany, same engine, same wheel size, same tire size, same rear end, same front end extra rear leaf spring. Remember, I said this is Ford Motor Company produced data. When I showed the data to an "experienced" Ford truck salesman, he stuttered all over himself and was at a loss to explain it.

The logic of it all escapes me and so does the argument. I am only addressing 2003 Ford 2/3-ton vs. 1-ton, no other vehicles or years.

[sreigle]

Interestingly, Stiles, if an F250 purchaser gets the optional "Camper Package" (for a slidein camper) he gets the extra leaf spring. That presumably ups the payload capacity since it's intended to handle the weight of a slidein camper. What I haven't seen is whether that makes that particular F250's payload numbers the same as the F350? I don't think in 2003 they put the payload info on the door sticker but I might be wrong about that. It's probably similar on a 2005 so maybe someone with a 2005 F250 with the camper package (the extra leaf spring) will tell us the numbers on the sticker. This is the Camper Package. I'm not talking about the tow package.

[Cat320]

The sticker depicting cargo capacity was mandated by the feds for model year 2005.

I would caution folks that you cannot, and should, not believe any weight information (except GCWR) from ANY source except that which is on the truck's data plates. The manufacturers love to state their truck has xxxx cargo capacity, well maybe so, with a small gas engine which limits the GCWR so much the truck won't tow much...but they don't tell you that.

When discussing cargo capacity, as I have said before, GVWR is very misleading. An F250 PSD is about 700 lbs heavier than 2500 D/A...so the PSD's 10,000 GVWR is virtually the same as the D/A's 9,200 GVWR.

The best way to compute truck weight is to get the cargo capacity off the sticker we've talked about, and subtract it from the GVWR...there's the empty weight of the truck. To compute max tow weight, subtract the actual weight of the truck from the GCWR...there it is.

[Steve and Brenda]

Are not the ads for the 2008 F250 stating that they can haul 3000 pounds in their beds? That make them a ton and a half truck and yet another weight class of tow vehicle?

[richfaa]

It is all sooooo confusing .Since I am not to bright I..add, subtract, whaever the manufacturers numbers are and do what they tell me.I figure they must know more than me ..and they make the rules so I figure I better play by their rules...

[David and Jo-Anna]

I have a 2007 F350 CC, LB 4x4 diesel. I went with the upgraded 11,500# GVWR option (bigger tires) to further increase my payload capacity (actually to offset the loss of payload attributable to adding the 4x4 and long bed options and diesel engine). My door sticker says my max payload is 3,736#, meaning that my truck with options weighs 7,764#. The pin weight on my "nearly fully loaded" Big Sky is 2,790#. When I add in vehicle occupants, a full load of diesel, generator in the truck bed, and some other misc items in the truck, my truck weight goes up to 11,540#, which makes me glad I have the 11,500# option. If and when I succeed with my diet goals, the combined weight of truck and occupants should come in at my 11,500# rating!!! LOL!!!!

While a 3/4 ton with airbags may have the same actual payload capacity, my own personality quirks make me feel more comfortable having an OEM rating of 11,500#.

FYI, my "nearly fully loaded" Big Sky 340RLQ weighed in at 14,530#. Given a dry weight of 12,595#, adding in some fresh and waste water, maybe 200# for the dual pane windows, plus the second AC and washer/dryer, I figure our total personal cargo is only about 1100# to date. As my combined truck and rig weight is already about 23,100#, I worry about what our total weight is going to be when we get "fully loaded" as we progress with our full-timing. Glad to hear that the trucks can safely handle more than their actual ratings, although I'll do my best to minimize the overload.

[ray fischer]

Steve, thanks for addressing this topic. I agree with you 100%. For awhile the weight police had me becoming paranoid about my 2005, 2500 dodge h/d ctd. Thanks to you and a guy on rv.net I discovered that the only difference between mine and the 3500 srw is one leaf in the pack. Every other part including brakes is the same. So I had the extra spring added about a year after I had the air bags installed. Someone asked why the Mfgs make both the 3/4 and 1 ton srw. I would assume its because of the ride comfort. W/o the fiver on, my ride is not as soft with the extra leaf. My Mountaineer 348RLS weighs 10250 dry and loaded I'm at 12200. The cat scale puts me over on Gvw, but under on all other weights including rear axle wt and tire wt. With the extra leaf I'm close to 3500 srw gvw. It tows and stops effortlessly. What's that old engineering theory, test it till it breaks then divide that number by 2 for safety. Seems like the Mfg covers his butt pretty well. I see duallys that tow trailers overweight. I now feel very safe with my situation. Thanks Steve, God Bless, Ray

[sreigle]

I agree it is all very confusing. I took Bert's method and did the math and that makes it more confusing. If I subtract payload, from the sticker, from GVWR I get a number for the actual truck weight (and that is more than the shipping weight on th etitle). So I subtract that result from GCWR and I get a tow rating that is HIGHER than the mfr says for tow rating. Very confusing.

[judyuk]

quote:Originally posted by David and Jo-Anna

I have a 2007 F350 CC, LB 4x4 diesel. I went with the upgraded 11,500# GVWR option (bigger tires) to further increase my payload capacity (actually to offset the loss of payload attributable to adding the 4x4 and long bed options and diesel engine). My door sticker says my max payload is 3,736#, meaning that my truck with options weighs 7,764#. The pin weight on my "nearly fully loaded" Big Sky is 2,790#. When I add in vehicle occupants, a full load of diesel, generator in the truck bed, and some other misc items in the truck, my truck weight goes up to 11,540#, which makes me glad I have the 11,500# option. If and when I succeed with my diet goals, the combined weight of truck and occupants should come in at my 11,500# rating!!! LOL!!!!

While a 3/4 ton with airbags may have the same actual payload capacity, my own personality quirks make me feel more comfortable having an OEM rating of 11,500#.

FYI, my "nearly fully loaded" Big Sky 340RLQ weighed in at 14,530#. Given a dry weight of 12,595#, adding in some fresh and waste water, maybe 200# for the dual pane windows, plus the second AC and washer/dryer, I figure our total personal cargo is only about 1100# to date. As my combined truck and rig weight is already about 23,100#, I worry about what our total weight is going to be when we get "fully loaded" as we progress with our full-timing. Glad to hear that the trucks can safely handle more than their actual ratings, although I'll do my best to minimize the overload.

David,
You may need to lose about 240 lbs....Charles Wade says dual pane windows add about 400lbs to the Big Sky. All of the outer walls are thicker,hence heavier, to accommodate the thicker windows. Hhhhmmmmmm.....have you considered riding a bike next to the 5th wheel and maybe adding a side car with room for about another *#$& lbs??
That makes me wonder how accurate the weight is on a brand new unit with factory added options. I guess I'll find out as we plan to weigh ours before we start loading it.
Judy

[sreigle]

Judy, a Keystone exec told us the weight on the sticker inside the coach is "with standard options." The same sticker is used for all of that model. So you can bet it does not include the dual panes nor the high gloss if you have that.