3400RL GVWR Questions - Keystone's Reply - Montana Owners Club

sreigle · 08-09-2006, 09:25 AM

I emailed an acquaintance at Keystone who I trust to ask why the major difference in carrying capacity between our 3295RK and the 3400RL. I also asked how GVWR is calculated. Some may recall I noticed awhile back all the GVWR's in the brochures seem to be axle max plus pinweight. That seems to be the case.

My contact forwarded the question to one of their engineers. The engineer was kind enough to reply with a very detailed explanation. Below, I will copy/paste that email.

Bottom line, to me, is that the carrying capacity is accurate only if pinweight is as in the brochure. I also gave my contact the numbers on our current Montana including our CAT scale weights. His comment was that if our 3295RK handles it, so will the 3400RL. He also said be reasonable about how much we load into it but it should have no problem handling the same load of CC items we have on our 3295RK.

Everything below is from that email. Hopefully this will put this issue to rest...
----
The difference is in the hitch weights.

The 3295 hitch weight is 2460

The 3400 hitch weigh is 1975

A 485 lb. difference.

GVWR is found by adding the axle capacity with the hitch weight.

The hitch weight is supported by the tow vehicle and is therefore added to the axle capacity to get GVWR.

3400 GVWR calculation:

Axle capacity + hitch weight = GVWR (12000 + 1975 = 13975)

3400 carrying calculation:

Shipping weight minus hitch weight equals dry axle weight. (11650 - 1975 = 9675)

Axle capacity minus dry axle weight equals carrying capacity (12000 - 9675 = 2325)

3295 GVWR calculation:

Axle capacity + hitch weight = GVWR (12000 + 2460 = 14460)

3295 carrying calculation:

Shipping weight minus hitch weight equals dry axle weight. (11055 - 2460 = 8595)

Axle capacity minus dry axle weight equals carrying capacity (12000 - 8595 = 3405)

Both units have the same axles, but the 3295 has 485 more lbs of GVWR because of it's higher hitch weight. Also, the 3295 has a 595 lb. lighter shipping weight. Add the two together to get 1080 lbs.

I'm showing on the newest weight sheet that the 3295 has 3405 of carrying capacity and the 3400 has 2325 carrying capacity for a difference of 1080.

Hitch weights vary for a variety of reasons. Slide rooms locations and size, holding tanks, and floor plan arrangement to name a few. Both units are within the recommended hitch weight to unit weight percentages. Both units tow very well as far as I know. A tale, tell sign that weights are good.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
Steve Reigle (pronounced Regal)
Fulltiming since 3/21/03
'03 3295RK
'05 Ford F250 SD Lariat CC SB 6.0L PSD/TS FX4 4x4

Our RV Travels (now Firefox-compatible)

richfaa · 08-09-2006, 10:35 AM

Wellll.I am no kind of a engineer..but I can add and subtract so I understand the numbers ..This engineer person having a diploma and everything must know of what he speaks and me having no enginer diplomas at all will take what he has , in his enginnering wisdom, imparted to us as the gosh honest truth so I am not concerned about a lb here or a lb there and I have heard and read enough about weights...Now that I know how the numbers are arived at a weight has been lifted from my chest (could not resist that)

Rich& Helen N.Ridgeville,Ohio.

F-350SD, Lariat, V-10,4:30 Diff, tow command Long bed, Crew Cab Dually, 06 3400RL
Mor-Ryde Pin Box

indy roadrunner · 08-09-2006, 11:34 AM

Boy, I hope some of the weight police on other forums don't read this or they might have that Keystone Engineer thrown in the overweight jail. They might even hold court on the forum and find him guilty or something.
Me - not to concerned, I know I can hook up (and since we are weekenders we don't load real heavy), go down the road, drives and stops just fine. Pound here, pound there, sorry I just don't stay up at night worrying about it.
Right now my biggest concern is if that &*((^% Mexican Train whisle goes off in the middle of the night.

Phill & Gladys
Sometimes me sits and thinks - sometimes me just sits.
06 GMC 2500HD Duramax 4x4
06 Montana 3400RL
Bichon - CEO

Parrothead · 08-09-2006, 01:19 PM

So if our 3500 can handle more than this pin weight, then putting heavy items in the front closet which will be on the pin weight, it is okay. Right?
Happy trails........................

Sue and Ed Rowe
Hemet California

2005 3400RL

2006 GMC 3500 Dually, D/A, Crew Cab, Long Bed

rickfox · 08-09-2006, 01:38 PM

Good Evening All,

Parrotthead, a pound is a pound no matter where its placed. And, unfortunately, the 3400 only allows so many.

It's somewhat sad that Keystone utilizes the approach they use (although if you look at the specs from quite a few other manufacturers, you will find they do the same thing). What it amounts to is that the units (like most of the larger models) which are more "balanced about the axles, and thus have a lower pin weight, are penalized with a smaller carrying capacity.

By the way, I was under my trailer today and clearly saw the GAWR stamped on each of the Dexter axles - 6,000#. Just thought I would mention this as in the past there have been questions about what they really were.

Rick & Wanda
2003 2500HD Crew Cab
Duramax with Allison Trans.
Firestone Airbags
Glide-Ride Pinbox - It's Great!
2006 3400RL - We Love The Trailer!

Montana Customer Service?

Mudchief · 08-09-2006, 01:58 PM

I agree with you Rich, this horse has been beat to death. How many people does anyone know that has had a vechicle or hitch break because of too much pin weight or sitting on the side of the road with broke axels? However if you ask about blown tires and flats you will get a lot different story. Just keep good tires on with the pressure up and don't worry about the weight except for stopping ability.

Dennis & Linda
05 GMC 2500HD Duramax CC
Pullrite Superglide
05 Mountaineer 329RLS
[IMGhttp://i3.tinypic.com/znkncy.jpg[/IMG]

richfaa · 08-09-2006, 02:08 PM

This was a real interesting thread and for me a learning experience. There is a lot of knowledge and clear thinkers here.I am always on a quest for knowledge..but I think we have just about wrung this rag dry . The numbers provided by all manufacturers are suspect but not that far off if we keep in mind that they are average numbers of average equipped campers. Use a little common sense and we can keep within safe weight limits and the only way to know for sure what your camper weighs with your options..is to weigh it..

Rich& Helen N.Ridgeville,Ohio.

F-350SD, Lariat, V-10,4:30 Diff, tow command Long bed, Crew Cab Dually, 06 3400RL
Mor-Ryde Pin Box

Bluegill · 08-09-2006, 03:04 PM

Clear as MUD !!!

Blue

David and Jo-Anna · 08-09-2006, 05:05 PM

Seems to me that Montana engineer likes to get easy answers the hard way. If you want to calculate the cargo carrying capacity for a 3400 supposedly weighing 11,650, you need only subtract that number from the posted GVWR of 13,975# to get the 2,325 carrying capacity he eventually gets to.

I'm more interested that the engineer seems to be acknowledging that the 3400's structure can handle a lot more weight than it is rated for. Recognizing that the 3400 can, and most often does, handle pin weights well above the 1,975# dry pin weight, then the gross weight of the 3400 is going to go over the GVWR if the axle load comes anywhere close to the 12,000# it is rated for, which it may do if you fully load up the fresh water tanks. If only Montana would raise the GVWR so as to eliminate the risk people face if they are in an accident and are found to have exceeded this artificially low GVWR Montana has come up with.

Bottom line to me--you can stay within this artificially low GVWR if you use your 3400 for vacationing or if you are a weight conscious snowbird, but it is going to be very hard to stay below 13,975# if you full time in the 3400.

Does anyone disagree or read it differently?

David and Jo-Anna Kikel

Parrothead · 08-09-2006, 06:48 PM

I believe there a lot of people proving you wrong. I think your 3000 lbs for full timers is overstated. There is no way we will have 3000 lbs. We have lived in our 3400 for 9 months and we didn't have 3000 lbs. We will not take our whole house with us when we full time. It has been said oh so many times. When you full time you need a lot less than when you were in a stick house and perhaps working. Life is much simpler on the road. We have hashed this weight thing to death and I hope it stops.
Happy trails..........................

Sue and Ed Rowe
Hemet California

2005 3400RL

2006 GMC 3500 Dually, D/A, Crew Cab, Long Bed

Chaser · 08-10-2006, 05:03 AM

All we have to say about the subject is Thanks Steve for giving us the Keystone answer and to all for their unending input, which still leaves us with the final answer - use common sense whether you are vacationing or full timing in all aspects of RVing, same as you would boating, etc. Nuff said!

Chaser,
Mike & Evy Orlob
2006 3400
2004 Dodge 3500
Retired, RVers (nearly Full Time), Racefans (wonder what their haulers weigh - just kidding)

sreigle · 08-10-2006, 05:12 PM

Sue, I'm pretty sure we have more than 3000 lbs aboard, counting freshwater, high gloss, and all our gear. Our scaled weight is 3600 lbs more than the UVW on the sticker in the cabinet on this 3295RK.

David, I see it same as you. By the way, it was GVWR and CC calculation I asked Keystone about.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
Steve Reigle (pronounced Regal)
Fulltiming since 3/21/03
'03 3295RK
'05 Ford F250 SD Lariat CC SB 6.0L PSD/TS FX4 4x4

Our RV Travels (now Firefox-compatible)

Parrothead · 08-10-2006, 06:09 PM

But I thought fresh water was already in the calculation. We only travel with about 10 gal. and maybe not even that much. We only use it to flush. We don't have the high gloss coat.
Happy trails........................

Sue and Ed Rowe
Hemet California

2005 3400RL

2006 GMC 3500 Dually, D/A, Crew Cab, Long Bed

CountryGuy · 08-11-2006, 02:38 AM

I thought so too Sue, Steve, I think you get to take weight of fresh water OFF, unless of course your inside sticker reads different than ours. Ours stated weight includes full water and full propane, but no battery to run it all! [:d]

So, if you are 3600 with full water, you get to take a nice hunk of change off, see what ya come up with??

Carol

David and Jo-Anna · 08-11-2006, 02:49 AM

Sue--I'm sensitive to the fact that several members would like this discussion on weight to end, so I don't want to extend the discussion unnecessarily. But let me just answer your question as to how the weight of the fresh water tank is and/or is not included in the calculations.

Montana does not count any water weight in the weight numbers they show in the brochures and spec sheets--which claim a cargo carrying capacity of 2325# for the 3400. However, the RVIA sticker, which is what you see on the cabinet door inside the 3400, requires the manufacturer to subtract out the weight of a full tank of fresh water and full propane tanks. That's why the bottom line carrying capacity number on the RVIA sticker is the 1517# that you have seen in some of the recent posts.

As for your own situation, the best measure is your own weight data when you have your own rig weighed rather than anything coming from Montana. Just be aware that, if you ever decide to fill up your fresh water tank rather than just carrying the 10 gallons of water you typically take, you'll be adding at least another 400# to your vehicle weight, albeit I believe most or all of that weight will show up on your axles rather than in the bed of your pickup because the fresh water tank is back by the trailer axles.

Hope I'm right on all this, and hope it helps answer your specific question.

David and Jo-Anna Kikel

sreigle · 08-11-2006, 06:30 AM

You're correct. My brain was on idle.

But I forgot to add in the washer and dryer stack, roughly 200 lbs. The 14360 lbs was with 2/3 freshwater. That's about 20 gallons (160 lbs) less than already calculated in the UVW, so I guess it's a wash (no pun intended.

)

As David said, on the 3400 the freshwater tank is in the rear so most of that weight goes on the axles and probably reduces pinweight a bit because of the leverage effect. But on our 3295RK the freshwater tank is directly across from the entry door, next to the bathroom, so most of ours goes on the pin. But this discussion is about the 3400.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
Steve Reigle (pronounced Regal)
Fulltiming since 3/21/03
'03 3295RK
'05 Ford F250 SD Lariat CC SB 6.0L PSD/TS FX4 4x4

Our RV Travels (now Firefox-compatible)

Parrothead · 08-11-2006, 07:27 AM

Steve
I'm confused by your reply to David. You said you agreed with him but he stated the 3400 is not suitable for full timing. Yet you just purchased one and we have a lot of other prople doing it also. I really want this thread to stop however, Ed and I were discussing this subject and we came up with another thought. When is all the weight ever on the axles. If you are parked, the legs and jacks are down. When you are towing, the pin is on the truck. I should have stated also that we carry a lot in our truck since it can handle it and one of the reasons we purchased a 3500 dually. We've been RVing for many, many years and this is our 3rd 5th wheel. We do not consider ourselves novices. The only time we really worried about weight was when we brought Monty down from Northern Calif. with our '95 2500. We took almost everything out of Monty and we still struggled. It was an unexpected event and we never towed the Monty again with that truck.
Happy trails....................

Sue and Ed Rowe
Hemet California

2005 3400RL

2006 GMC 3500 Dually, D/A, Crew Cab, Long Bed

sreigle · 08-11-2006, 08:23 AM

Sue, my agreement was with you and Carol. It was a timing issue. I had opened a window for this thread prior to David's reply but didn't get to replying myself for several hours. After David's post.

I do not agree the 3400 is not suitable for fulltiming. We've fulltimed for 3 years and five months in a 2003 3295RK and the 3400 has several improvements. After talking with Keystone, the weight issue is a non-issue. It arose only because of how they calculate GVWR, and thus CC. Their calculation does not reflect what the coach can handle. The pinbox on our 2003 is rated for 15,500 total trailer weight. What we need to know is what can the frame handle. What the coach can handle is likely the lower of that 15,500 or what the frame can handle, assuming axle ratings are not exceeded.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
Steve Reigle (pronounced Regal)
Fulltiming since 3/21/03
'03 3295RK
'05 Ford F250 SD Lariat CC SB 6.0L PSD/TS FX4 4x4

Our RV Travels (now Firefox-compatible)

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