GVWR and NCC for the 3400 - Page 2 - Montana Owners Club

David and Jo-Anna · 07-26-2006, 08:40 AM

More great posts. WOW!! Much appreciated. More than I can respond to immediately--let me address a few points now and more later.

Agree wholeheartedly about my needing to be careful in selecting what to put in the RV and what to leave behind. But I'm at a disadvantage since we are total newbies and so can't look to an existing rig to see how much stuff we are using. So for purposes of trying to determine in advance how much weight to expect our personal cargo to take up while full timing, it seems the most prudent thing to do to reserve at least 1500# for personal cargo, based on the experience of others, when trying to determine what options to get for the rig--I feel it would be foolish of me to buy some heavy options for the rig up front if that means downstream I only have room for 1000# of cargo in order to keep within the 3400's GVWR. That's the reason for my focus on the rig's weight, including water and waste, and how to determine just what options I can "afford" in terms of a "weight allowance."

Based on what I've learned so far, I'm inclined to get the washer/dryer prep and the prep for the 2d AC but defer getting either of them until after I buy my rig and get a better feel for what my personal cargo will weigh. I'm also inclined to go with the slide awnings since they sound like just the kind of labor saving option I want during my retirement. Just wish I knew whether it weighed 70# (like I was told by the sales guy I talked to when I called Montana last week) or 200# like some others here have suggested. To me, that's a big difference, and I'd sure like to know the right weight in trying to make decisions about my "weight allowance."

I'm struggling more about the other heavy options. When I thought the major argument for hi-gloss was cosmetic, I was prepared to pass on it. Now I'm wondering about Dave's comment that hi gloss saves lots of work in keeping the Monty clean. Just how much does it help out that way? Anyone had both hi gloss and filon and care to comment on how much easier life is with hi gloss?

As for dual pane windows, I don't expect to be in cold climates very much, which is where I'm sure it is most helpful. But do dual pane windows help much in hot climes? And how much do they help with noise, both in terms of keeping in loud music (LOL) and keeping out noisy rigs that get started in the morning while I'm still trying to sleep?

As for a generator, I'm leaning in the direction of going with portable(s), but need to do more research since I don't know squat about how one actually ties portable generators to the rig's electrical systems. If I go portable, is there any reason to get Montana's generator prep option?

All I've got time for at the moment to address. I really appreciate any and all help I can get on these things.

richfaa · 07-26-2006, 09:17 AM

The gen prep is for the onan 5.5 gen.A portable Gen runs the camper fine. Honda/Kipor. Etc.Easy to hook up, just plug it in. Google High gloss finish and research the positives and negatives.Check with camper world on the weight for the slide awning as they install a similar product.To me the awnings were a "must have" option.Think of all the stuff that can collect on the slide outs and you will have 4 of them.You are doing all the right things in your preperation to buy a camper..averything will work out.

Montana Sky · 07-26-2006, 09:45 AM

David,
I would like to respond to a few of your follow-up questions. Again, these are just my opinions from things I have learned from owning my 2nd Montana.

1~ I would recommend you order the 2nd a/c prep and washer/dryer prep. Cost for the a/c prep is $100 and washer/dryer prep is $155. Having these two prep options will allow you to add options down the road, and cost less to have the factory "prep" them instead of having a dealership do the labor to make them work. I had the 2nd a/c installed this passed spring. After going through 2 summers w/ temps reaching into the 115 mark, I found that 1 a/c was not enough for a coach as large as the 3400RL. Depending on where you spend your summer months, you might want to really look into adding the 2nd a/c as part of your purchase agreement when you and your dealership agree on a price. I found that Rich was able to get his 2nd a/c cheaper by including it at the time of purchase, than what I paid by having the dealership add it 2 years later.

2~ Hi-gloss. I have only had the standard filon fiberglass on both of my rigs. I am using a neighbors coach w/ hi-gloss as my comparison. I am one who is very patictular about how my rigs look, therefore I spend alot of time on them. I want that nice "white shine" on my coach all the time. I have noticed a few other brands of rv's that have "yellowed" from the sun, they all have in common, standard filon fiberglass. From other owners I have talked with, the common answer I hear is the hi-gloss is easier to clean. Black streaks wipe away, bugs seem to come off w/ ease, and most owners just use a soap to wash their coach every now and then while on the road. They do not seem to worry about waxing. While my coach will never have that great shine as a hi-gloss rig does, w/ proper care I can only hope it will look as good as long. As I stated in my previous post, my next coach will have hi-gloss w/o a doubt. (maybe by then, Keystone will have a full body paint option) I guess it all depends on how you want to spend your afternoons during retirement??

3~ Dual pane windows came into the rv industry with the main purpose of "sound insulation" for motorhomes and motorcoaches. If you look into the R value of a "rv dual pane window" you will find there is not a big difference in "value" between dual pane and single pane windows. The reason is space, there is just not enough distance between the panes of glass. Yes they will help "some" w/ sound, but as mentioned "the benefit vs weight" is just not that great. I got this info from a very trusted rep at Keystone. Also have confirmed it at the Prevost conversion plants for Marathon Coach, Featherlite, and Hemphill Brothers who use them on the H3-45 models. All of these companies use "dual pane" for sound insulation, the small increase in R value is an added bonus.

4~ I did not order the generator prep as I wanted the maxium amount of storage as possible in the basement compartments. Rich will be able to explain how to set up a portable generator to use w/ your new coach. Again, it is my opinion, toss the generator prep option if weight is a possible concern for you.

5~ Slide room awnings are another "must have" on my next coach. They really seem to help keep the inside cooler, and sure beats having to climb on the roof to clear debris away.

Cat320 · 07-26-2006, 09:50 AM

David,

You are getting lots of good advice. I agree with the majority. Here's what we opted for:

Washer/dryer prep, 2nd A/C prep (if its 105, don't know that the DW will want to go anywhere, even with two A/Cs), gel coat (all higher end models come with it as standard), ceiling fan (avoid a second A/C), free standing table/chairs (comfort), and king bed (comfort).

Against: 2nd A/C (see above), gen or gen prep (would use a portable and carry it in the truck...assuming your truck can handle the weight), windows (heavy, won't camp if too cold), central vac (use a small electric), washer/dryer (maybe get later), slide awnings (don't need), and fireplace (don't need, more weight).

Also, you have asked a number of questions that owner's really can't answer. We can give you all sorts of valuable information, but some things need to come from Keystone. For your very technical detailed questions, I'd call them. Plus, all of these forums have lots of well meaning good folks...who have the tendency to tell us more than they really know.

richfaa · 07-26-2006, 11:47 AM

Boy you are being loaded with great information. I keep my Kipor Gen (132lbs)in the back of my long bed F-350 just to the right of the tailgate. It is covered and tied down and rides perfect. It can be hooked up and on line in a few min's. We did get the 2nd A/C prep from the factory but got the 2nd A/C(low profile) from the dealer at less cost than the factory option..Check that out with your dealer. To be honest we have not yet had a real need for the 2nd A/C even in 95+ and high humidity.We did get the W/D prep and have since determined that we will need the W/D.We did get the Central Vac. A Helen requirement. We traded off the High Gloss finish, Dual pane windows and fireplace for carrying capacity.Again with the high gloss I agree 100% that it looks pretty. Ask you dealer or Keystone what the Gen prep is for..We were told it is the prep for the Onin 5.5 Gen only therefore useless for any other kind of Gen..and as cat320 says..When in doubt ask the expert.Example..I posted that I was hesitant to drill holes in my Mor-ryde pin box and we had plenty of pro and anti hole replies..I have a call in to Mor-Ryde Tech Services on the hole question. Their responce will determine hole or no hole...

You are getting lots of great input but the ultimate decision/Choice is all yours

David and Jo-Anna · 07-26-2006, 03:52 PM

Rich--let me ask what I'm sure is a dumb question to those who know generators, but I haven't done research yet on portables. When you hookup your portable generator, do you use a special connector to plug it into the main power input plug in the rear of the 3400? If not, how do you hook it into your electrical system system? And do you haul that 132# unit out of the truck and carry it back there, or do you park your truck near the back end of the RV?

And did you choose to buy the 2d AC from the dealer merely because you got a better price, or was there something better about the model of AC you could get from the dealer than the OEM unit from Montana?

richfaa · 07-26-2006, 04:19 PM

The Kipor and I am sure the Honda and others has a adapter plug that comes with it. We keep it in the back of the truck and move the truck to the side or back as needed.Now you can get 2 Honda 2000K gens that can be hooked together and each 2000k gen is light enough to be carried.. 1 2000K gen will not run 2 A/C's and 2 Honda 2000k's are expensive..It was a price thing for us..another trade off.The dealer was able to get the Low profile Dom penguin for 100.00 less tha the OEM supplied model.I have no idea what the OEM model is..You neeed to really think about the need for a generator. 15 years ago even 10 years ago it was common for C.G power to fail or be bad.That is not so common anymore and we rarely carry the gen now.It is on the truck now because we we went to a fairground in Canada with @ 700 other campers and were leery of the power..It was however, fine.We have the generator, in fact we have two generators more for power failures here at the house during summer and winter storms..

Driftwoodgal · 07-26-2006, 05:25 PM

David,

Something you might want to research is how much the fireplace will heat your Monty. Do you want to use propane as your source of heat or carry several space heaters to keep warm. Will you be spending enough time camping where you will need alot of heat? We have the fireplace and would rather use the campgrounds nickel to heat our Monty than ours using propane.

Even here in Texas you will need a heater of some sort to keep warm. You might want to ask Carol and others that were in the Rio Grande Valley how often they had to use their heat and what they used.

Colleen

Wrenchtraveller · 07-26-2006, 05:54 PM

The Dimplex Fireplace insert I just bought is 34 pounds. The OEM one is probably in that ball park. The trim around will add a few extra pounds but it should be all under 50 pounds I hope.

richfaa · 07-27-2006, 02:27 AM

I had remarked in a earlier post on another thread that Lipperts made the frames for Keystone and supplied the same frame to other manufacturers. I was questioned on that so I put the question to Lippert. The reply from a Lippert representitive is as follows. As I said.If you need the correct answer ask the expert. I was 100% wrong.

Rich,

All of the manufacturers we build frames for are built to their specs. The frame built for the Montana 3400 and my Challenger 35RLQ are exactly the same and was specified by Keystone. However, that frame is used only by Keystone and no other manufacturer.

If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to contact me.

Have a good day!
Dale.

CountryGuy · 07-27-2006, 02:46 AM

David and Colleen,

In reference to Colleen's comment about the heat source and how much we might or might not use in the Valley. We have used heat in the Valley the 3 winters we spent there. Every place in the Lower 48 gets winter, some more than others. Some of you will remember a few years ago they had snow in the Valley on Christmas morning, which was gone by 10 AM, but it was snow, and it was cold and it damaged a lot of crops, specially the aloe.

Anyway, we have in the past used our propane during our stays in the Valley, as we are paying our own electric bills there.

When we are in a campground where they pay the electric, yes, we use electric heaters. If it is chilly enough, we turn the furnace on about 68, and the electric heaters. We have 2 of those small cube (ceramic I believe) heaters, one for the bedroom, one for the main living area. Crack the ceiling vent about 1/2 inch for moisture control, a couple of nice blankets and we are toasty for the night.

We did not order the fireplace, as that is Yorkie Central, aka, storage area for 4 crates for the kids.

Carol

Driftwoodgal · 07-27-2006, 02:56 AM

Carol,

I hope this isn't getting off topic with this question, but feel that David is trying to determine what is important when buying his Montana so here goes.

If you didn't have the four ring circus, yorkies, would you have ordered the fireplace?

You have the Air hitch and love it, do you know the weight on it?

When traveling do you normally carry any water with you?

Colleen

Wrenchtraveller · 07-27-2006, 03:09 AM

Just to add to Rich's comments on the frame. I studied the Montana brochures and the Mountaineer brochures and the Montanas have a "rolled" I-Beam versus just an I-Beam for Mountaineer.

Some manufacturers used to get a jobbing shop to weld up thier I-Beams and the quality might not be as consistant as a manufactured structural " rolled " I-beam.

I would think the Montana frames cost more but the strength and weight, I am not sure.

Maybe a smart engineer can give us a more educated opinion of rolled versus standard I-Beam.

CountryGuy · 07-27-2006, 03:27 AM

Colleen and David,

As far as the fireplace, I know they are great, they sure are purdy, if we did not have the kids, would we have ordered it?? Truthfully, probably not. Storage space in any rig, any model is at a premium, and since we are comfy with the small electric heaters which take up very little room, and that fireplace is a nice big hunk of real estate in there, nope, I would prefer to have the storage area. I know there are a number of full timers that have it tho and would not be without it. This is one of those personal preference items, the beauuuuutttiiiiifullllll fire place or the storage. With my habits of craft items, holiday items, and research, the fire place loses!

Air pin, do not know the weight, Al seems to think it was about 170 pounds, but does not want to go on the record with that, as our memory is not that good. He says it is a bit heavier than the OEM pin and he thinks it was not quite as heavy as the Trailair air pin. Note it is the pin not the hitch. Al has said if he knew THEN (as in when we ordered the hitch) and what we know NOW, the air HITCH would probably have been our choice. Ya all know what we have said about that before, won't ever pull a 5er without a air hitch or pin. Period!

When we run we carry only about 5 gallons of water in any of the tanks. After hearing some of the stories here last year about water tanks falling out when full, and the reports of what people found when they dropped the belly pans to repair, well, we just decided we just did not need to run with a lot of stuff sloshing around down there. Again, this is a choice/decision we made that works for us. The only time we fill that fresh water tank to the top is when we go to the lake for 15 days and that is ALL the water I am gonna have for 15 days. Even that makes us a bit nervous, but we do it.

We all make these decisions based on our experience (which David has none of, which has to be REALLY hard) and our own personal quirks and needs.

Carol

P.S. Don't think we are hijacking the thread, but if we are, we apologize.

David, thought of this last night, not sure it is feasible, but might be an interesting experiment. Make a list of what you think you will need to live in a VERY VERY small apartment (forget the wheels and the moving around part, just think space). Would you have a set of dishes to set 12 place settings?? Or, maybe 4, and if you have more people to dinner you go out to eat or have a picnic and use paper. Would you have 5 sets of linens for your bed?? Or, 1, when it gets dirty, wash it, dry and remake the bed. Would you have formal clothes (ok, maybe in an apartment, but hee hee, not in a 5er), you might have a suit and a good church going dress, but not 6 suits. Anyway, make a list of what you think you would HAVE to have to live in a very very small apartment. Then mentally make a pile of this stuff, and then attempt to determine weights of it. Anyway, just one of those mad thoughts that ole Carol gets in the middle of the night.

Parrothead · 07-27-2006, 05:11 AM

On the subject of water, we travel with about 10 gallons in our tank. We only use it for flushing, washing hands, etc. We carry bottled water for drinking, coffee, etc. If we were going to boondock, I think I would go back to my tent camping days and carry some water in another container instead of filling the fresh water tank to capacity. JMHO.
Happy trails.........................

richfaa · 07-27-2006, 05:53 AM

Just had a long conversation with a Mor-Ryde rep (Doug).again..ask the expert.I had three questions

1. I was hesitant to drill any kind of hole in the Mr-Ryde pin box to install one of those big Bubble Levels
Question..is that a problem Answer..No not at all. (I will do it.)

2. I noticed looking at the Mor-Ryde video that it showed shocks using the RE suspension.Keystone does not use shocks..is that good or bad. Answer..In fact our test have shown that the performance is better without the shocks. The shocks can restrict the effectiveness the RE suspension.

3. Although I have nothing to compare with I note some chucking with the Mor-Ryde pin-box..Am I doing something wrong like not enough pin weight.After some discussion it was determined that I am doing nothing wrong and the Pin box is doing its job and all chucking will not be eliminated. He was very aware of the MOC and advised that Gary Wheeler the Experts, Expert should be at the Fall rally for questions. I am satisfied with the answers...

Montana Sky · 07-27-2006, 07:06 AM

Just something more to throw into the pot on the lines of the fireplace. I also think one has to look at which floorplan they are buying. In the 3400RL there is a ton of storage cabinets, because of the storage capacity, I was willing to give up 1 cabinet for the fireplace. Goes back to personal preference.

Bighorn · 07-27-2006, 08:22 AM

David & Jo-Anna

You may find a lot of helpful information here http://www.rv-dreams.com/index.html
Howard & Linda have done a superb job documenting their research and experiences.

Wrenchtraveller · 07-27-2006, 02:46 PM

On the chucking, no word of a lie, my 2955RL went over 3000 miles on not so perfect roads at 70MPH and not once, repeat, not once did I ever have chucking or any other unusual towing characteristics. This is with a basic SL 16 Hijacker Hitch that does not have side to side pivot.

My 2955RL was slightly over it's 12080 GVWR (12300) and this put 2600 on the pin.
Smooooooooooooooooooth towing and I am very lucky my wheelbases jive.

I have said before how my brother had a 26 foot Wildwood Fiver that would slam the hitch like a jackhammer on his 98 Dodge. It was unbelievable and it scared the heck out of you. He tried everything, even putting different numbers of cement bags over the pin...............no luck.
I hooked up the 00 F350 I owned at the time, and it towed it real smooth. Sometimes, you get a bad WB combination or something. I wonder if you can write a test tow into the new deal agreement.

Searchers · 07-27-2006, 03:12 PM

Rich,

I find interesting the comment that "In fact our test have shown that the performance is better without the shocks. The shocks can restrict the effectiveness the RE suspension."

Doesn't the RE suspension still utilize leaf springs with the only difference being a rubber equalizer instead of a steel one between them?

Having bounced around on all kinds of toys over the years I don't recall ever riding anything that didn't have shocks to dampen the recoil action of any type of spring. It just doesn't seem right to me.

Don

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