Everest frames must be stronger?

[MIMF]

OH MY GOD!!

Sorry folks , I can't let this pass!

The question of the stupidity here is not whethwer some someone is qualified to pill tandem trailers here or not. In my mind the question of stupidity comes from doing it in the first place. Why spend 50,000 to 60,000 dollars for a new 5th wheel coach take it home and hook up another trailer to it. AT LEAST wait for two years after the 5er was built to do that because, the stupidity just lays in the fact that the warranty for your frame has just EXPIRED!!

If something in the frame comes apart, you will be on your own and it will cost several thousand dollars to fix it and can guarantee, it will come out of your pocket.

Thanks, and you all have a good day!

[txkrumm]

Dale, maybe this would be a good time to post the Official Lippert Policy on frame and slide warranty. Because, It seems that the dealers themselves either don't know the policy or don't care and just say whatever they have to in order to make the sale.
So what is the chain of responsibilty here. Everyone in the chain says something different.
After reading the fine print on the warranty info I have, I'm not sure whats covered. It seems the original owner is the only one covered and if you do anything without Lipperts inspection, your on your own too. I'm the third owner, so guess I'm out of luck anyway. Steve

[LonnieB]

I too, would like to know the answer to Steve's question, and have one of my own. Why would my dealer refuse to install a gooseneck hitch, saying it would void the frame warranty, then turn right around and install a reciever hitch and light socket, knowing full well what I would be towing behind the Montana.

[MIMF]

http://www.lci1.com/Service%20Warran...%20Chassis.pdf

Here it is folks. Read it very carefully!

[MIMF]

Lonnie,

Sorry for not answering your question.

He did it for one of two reasons or perhaps both.

First, he has not read the linked three pages and was unaware or, second, was trying to sell you the coach.

The only thing I would like to add is, we can not tell you what to do with your coach when you buy it. If something goes wrong with the frame, you can bet we will do a thorough inspection before repairs are done. If we find evidence of alterations being done without our input before hand, we will be hard pressed to pay for those repairs.

All warranties apply only to the original owner.

[LonnieB]

Thank you Dale, for the warranty link, and the answer to my question, however it does raise more questions. I can see Lippert is pretty clear on what is, and what is not, covered by warranty. There was NO document in any of my paperwork that resembled what I just read. The warranty information in the owners manual is unclear as to frame coverage. It states something to the effect of the frame not being warranteed if there have been non-factory authorized repairs or additions. Are the Keystone Dealers not factory authorized representatives?
As far as the reasons you gave me for why my dealer installed the hitch, I have to believe it was because he was unaware. He is an honest man and has built one of the finest dealerships in this region on his honesty and fair dealing. Which brings me to the second question. Why are the dealers evidently unaware of the Lippert frame warranty?
The bottom line on this frame issue for me, is that I'm not worried about it. IF a problem arises, I'll deal with it at that time.
Thanks again, for the info.

[snfexpress]

For those of you that thought I was saying it is stupid to pull tandem, let me set the record straight. Yes, if your TV and trailers are built to withstand the stresses, and you are experienced, then go for it.

My original thought when I took the picture was the obvious weight on tongue of the hitch attached to the Everest 5th Wheel.

FYI, in Nevada, one must have a class J endorsement to their license in order to legally tow anything over 10,000 GVRW. The J course and test are the same as the class A minus the Federal law for towing for commerce.

[LonnieB]

Hello Michael, thanks for the Nevada DL info. I checked out the Nevada DMV website and was impressed with what I found. The J endorsement, as you stated, makes you legal to tow a trailer 10,000 lbs or over. The only way to get this J endorsement is with a Class A RVL. In looking at the test contents for the Class A RVL, I can see it DOES seem to be the same general test I took for my Class A CDL. Good information, I wonder how many other states have this law?

[rickfox]

The Lippert warranty is similar to many others, including those statements that indicate that "parking lots are not responsible for any damage to parked cars". No offense to you Dale - I know you didn't write it. Making statements on a warranty do not in fact dictate the results of a law suit.

For example, in reading this warranty, it clearly states that the warranty does not apply to the end user, but only to the original purchaser - Keystone - and is for a period of time that starts when Keystone - not the end user - purchases the product.

Additionally, the warranty excludes any "Product" that has been modified in any way which includes pinbox modifications - also read as Morryde Pin box. I wonder how much trouble those who have the Morryde will run into if frame problems crop up?

For what its worth, my lawyer friends tell me that most warranties that are written this way, are not enforcable except to the extent that it can "reasonably be shown" that the modification was a result of any consequential failure.

Again, the Lippert warranty is written to essentially proctect Lippert - not the end user.

Time will tell how this all works out.

But, of course, this is somewhat straying from the original direction of this thread. Some have said that those who tow with 3/4 ton trucks are stupid. Some have said that those who triple tow are stupid. I think its OK to have one's opinion, but making arguemntative comments will lead to one end - an argument that has no place on the MOC.

[rickfox]

By the way Michael,

Do you know what the NV law says about pulling a 10K plus trailer thru NV if you are not an NV resident, but have a valid DL from say TX?

In other words, will you be perhaps stopped and ticketed if you are pulling a 14K Monty thur NV and have only a "regular" TX DL?

If it means a ticket if caught, I wonder how many other potential gotcha's are out there?

[LonnieB]

Well thought out and well spoken Rick, on both posts.

[William H. Collier]

States can only regulate and enforce the type of license required for residents of their respective state. You are only required to be in compliance with the laws of the state that you are licensed in. There is a reciprocity aggreement between the states. This only applys to drivers license.
Bill

[snfexpress]

From NRS 483.240 (3):

A nonresident who is at least 16 years of age and who has in his immediate possession a valid license issued to him in his home state or country may drive a motor vehicle in this State of the type or class he may operate in his home state or country.

Bill is correct.

FYI, in Nevada, a class R is required for tandem towing.

As a cop for 13 years, I have seen a lot of different combinations of vehicles and a lot of different driver's licenses. I felt it was important to get a class J for my state so that if I am in an accident, my liablity issues will be minimized where classification is concerned - in any state of the U.S.

LonnieB,

What I found interesting about the J test was the requirement to use an air pressure gauge or a tire knocker on the trailer tires or one fails.

[bsmeaton]

MIMF,

Aside from any arguments about driver qualifications, and aside from any applicable warranty;

For my own benefit, has Lippert received any units with frame damage as a result of towing a second trailer with a receiver on the back of the frame? If so, what are the failure points?

I tow a boat and I too was sold this hitch through my Dealer, and was given the impression this was a common practice for trailers of my size. I am within the tow capacity of the TV and frame rating as stamped on the pin box, but I would be curious as to what kind of failures are seen at the factory and possibly what kind of weights were found to be towed.

Brad

[MIMF]

Brad,

We have and we've seen damage in several areas. Most notable in the upper deck and at the rear and in almost every case, it was broken welds. The welds at the rear seem to occure at cross members were they are welded to the main frame beams.

I am willing to bet, that the tandem trailer with the small car on it in the first picture that was posted in this thread, will have that frame broken in numorous places in very short order! That is because of the sideways pull on the tail of the frame when he turns a corner due to the torque applied by those tandem axles.

Folks, let me try to clear something up here. Lippert builds all frames to the specs of the manufacturer. It is the manufacturer's responsibility to inform the "end user" what can be done and what can't. All of our warranties and owners manuals are available to the "end user" thru our web site. Anyone can go there at any time and print that information. It is in Adobe format and is located at www.lci1.com.

Have a good day.

[bsmeaton]

Thanks MIMF -
always easier to accept or deny risk when they understand the actual consequences.

Brad

[rickfox]

Thanks for the info Dale (by the way, the slide adjustmenst went just fine).

One of the members recently posted several photos that suggested they had attached a rear hitch receiver to one or two of the cross members - the members that that look like welded top and bottom prices of metal with a diagonal round bar welded between them - sort of like a girder. This seems like a somewhat scarey connection approach as compared to installing a solid cross member mounted to the 2 I-beams - like the hitchhickers and Excels do. This second approach would seem to apply the torques you mentioned onto the I-beams rather than cross members.

Of the installations you've seen that have caused problems, were there any similarities in installation approach - better vs. worse? For example, I seem to remember that Lippert would install rear receivers that met their design and requirements. Is that correct?