maint manuals and wiring diagrams

[jwentz9059]

Anyone know where you can get maint. manuals for our Montanas?. Havn't asked at the dealership yet, but I am told they don't like to give out that type of information. I'm not talking about the general manuals that come with the rv, but the specific manual for a particular rv such as wiring diagrams and hydraulic schematics etc.

[HamRad]

There are no such animals! Keystone does not produce a wiring diagram or a hydraulic schematic. You will just have to guess and or trace whatever it is you're trying to work on.

HamRad

[BB_TX]

Shortly after we bought our '07 Montana, we found there was a wiring problem with the refrigerator (turn on the ceiling fan and the frig worked on AC, turn off the ceiling fan and the frig switched to gas ). Took it back to dealer and they quickly corrected the problem. I asked the service manager if I could get a wiring diagram for the rig. He said he would see if he could get me one. After contacting the factory, he said that a wiring diagram was not available. Watching the service techs for a while, apparently they did not have a wiring diagram to try to troubleshoot from.
Now, they will never convince me they don't have wiring diagrams for these units when they are built. Apparently they just don't give them out.
And the manuals I did get were simply the manuals supplied with the various appliances installed in the unit.

[exav8tr]

BB TX, Having been at the Keystone factory and seeing the manufacturing process, I can attest there are NO wiring diagrams. Information is in the heads of the electricians "Throwing wire" as the rigs come down the line. Remember, they produce 8 units a day (Montanas) and there is no time to consult a diagram. Hard to believe, but it's true.....No maintenance manuals either.....

[BB_TX]

quote:Originally posted by exav8tr

BB TX, Having been at the Keystone factory and seeing the manufacturing process, I can attest there are NO wiring diagrams. Information is in the heads of the electricians "Throwing wire" as the rigs come down the line. Remember, they produce 8 units a day (Montanas) and there is no time to consult a diagram. Hard to believe, but it's true.....No maintenance manuals either.....

That is pretty amazing. I would not necessarily have expected them to look at a diagram as they wired each. But I would have thought they would have had a diagram pretty much memorized so that every unit by every person would be wired (nearly) alike. Now I understand why my frig was wired to the ceiling fan ciruit.

[bsmeaton]

I'm sure the design engineers use schematics or at least line drawings so they can calculate loads, but those would be of no use on the production floor.

[Ozz]

Keystone could be more helpful, for instance they have to run the wires and lines pretty much the same way every time on a specific model, they could give out their disclaimers, and give that information to us. But they won't.
It would be interesting to sit down over a cup-'o-Joe with a few service managers and pick their brains on this subject. I bet they would have complaints as well.
The problem is, that the hourly service charge we will have to pay, can be for the service guys to blindly look for problems without wiring diagrams and hydraulic system lay-outs.
What is is now, over $100.00 an hour?
Ozz

[exav8tr]

Jim, That is something I truly dislike. Just like paying someone for something while they are learning to do that particular something. I know the purpose of instructions, but when you take something in to a repair tech you expect that he has done this before. I always ask if they have done this before and are aware of the procedures. I sometimes get some strange looks but I don't feel I should pay $100 an hour for OJT. I think that is why the Chiltons manuals for autos and trucks has expected times for doing things, of course a good mechanic has learned to do things in a shorter amount of time and sometimes will charge you less, but most often won't. I once had a repair on a Toyota and they wanted to charge me 3 hours labor. They only had the car for two hours and only one tech working on it. I won that one.... Don't get me wrong, I don't mind paying for good help but I do mind paying for someone to learn.......

[bsmeaton]

Hate to break it but for the general public you get charged the Chilton rate or equivalent, regardless of how long it actually takes, to the benefit of the mechanic or benefit of the customer, but rarely the customer.

When I was spinning a wrench, you weren't making money if you weren't doing 12-16 Chilton hours each 8 hour workday. Just part of the business, at least a few years ago.

[OntMont]

quote:Originally posted by exav8tr

BB TX, Having been at the Keystone factory and seeing the manufacturing process, I can attest there are NO wiring diagrams. Information is in the heads of the electricians "Throwing wire" as the rigs come down the line. Remember, they produce 8 units a day (Montanas) and there is no time to consult a diagram. Hard to believe, but it's true.....No maintenance manuals either.....

When we toured the plant a couple of years ago, they were producing over 20 units a day. The rate they go down the line there would be no time to refer to a manual anyway. They come down in random order, so the guys have to "fly by the seat of their pants". They all follow a fairly similar basic pattern, but there are differences in models, and not all production crews do things exactly the same way.
Most of the 12v wiring is routed through the ceiling, the 120v is mostly in the walls, usually visible at the back of base cabinets. Hydraulics are in the basement along with most of the plumbing. With some patience and trial and error, you can usually figure it out.

[rogue]

Here is where you can find the Owners Manual which lists the Maintenance items.
http://keystone-montana.com/index.html?page=service

Here is a compiled list of the maintenance items from most of the manuals.
http://www.montanaowners.com/maintenance.html

The above are correct as there are no wiring diagrams or Hydraulic diagrams, that I have been able to find.

[rames14]

It was interesting last fall at the rally when I asked why they don't have schematics and plumbing diagrams. They explained it's just like a house. You don't get wiring diagrams and plumbing diagrams there, either. I guess they were right. One advantage of the tour, is that as Oz mentioned, they do it virtually the same way each time. I take pictures at each stage each year just in case. That way I can see where the various items are routed. If I have an issue, I go back and look at the pictures. I guess they're poor man's schematics. Another issue that is affecting the RV industry just like others are 2nd language workers. In the past, it was mostly Amish workers. Now,they have hispanic, asian, and other nationality workers. Not everyone reads English. Just a fact.

[Dean A Van Peursem]

I don't agree with the fact that there isn't wiring diagrams for a house. There is, you just have to get to the architect's drawings to get to them. How many outlets per line and to what lights and to what circuit breaker and what ratings .....are defined. The problem in the RV industry is they don't control the worker on the line to follow the engineering drawings even if there are any drawings or specifications. Just look at multiple Iota panels on several different but like model Montana units. Hand written designations because the worker decides where things go. There have been many reports here on this forum where owners have found outlets and lights on way different circuits than they are supposed to be on. Also others have reported drains going to the wrong tanks. I suspect there are engineering drawings and wiring diagrams but the reason we can't get those drawings is there is a high probability the unit wasn't built to those drawings or wiring diagrams. This creates high repair costs for the manufacturers under warranty, which we pay for on the initial price and extremely high labor costs for us when the unit is out of warranty. Hours to find how it was built so it can be repaired. This lack of wring diagrams and drawings is a true and major indicator of the poor manufacturing quality we are receiving. I know I will never buy another RV unless they can show me a wiring schematic of my specific unit before I purchase it. That may mean I will never ever buy another RV. So be it. PS: I heard they were Amish workers but they spoke Spanish! :-) I don't blame the workers. It is the management that allows this kind of stuff that is at fault and it is management that needs to be held accountable. Workers can be trained and held accountable if the management decides that is important. Apparently that isn't the case in the RV industry.

[NCFischers]

Dean,
I don't agree with you about houses having wiring diagrams. I have been in the electrical contracting business for 40 years and have never been given a workable wiring schematic to a house. If it came from an architect or engineer, it probably would have been wrong anyway. As the contractor, I am responsible for for wiring the house to code and running circuits as I deem most efficient. Granted, I'll often get a print with little outlet, switch symbols and lines all over it that often makes no practical sense. For example, a bank of five switches between a door and window that is solid support structure. Sometimes they just use those symbols because they get paid by the number of devices they are "engineering". As for commercial and industrial construction, there usually are drawings and wiring layouts that are often not correct or practical. I have found glaring code errors on prints that I have had to correct in the field or redesign to satisfy customer needs. I would rather walk through the job with the owner and discuss his needs and make suggestions. I'm not complaining, that's my job as I am ultimately responsible for the job passing code. Even if I had a diagram, I wouldn't completely trust it. I've often found that when you go back to the engineer or architect, you wind up correcting it yourself anyway. Over the years, with very few exceptions, I use the print to find the location of the job and engineer in the field. I've never had problems with inspectors by doing this.

[Lambchop]

I have a wiring diagram for my 2008 Montana.

When I called Montana on my washer dryer hookup, they sent me all the schematics for the unit. I wanted to know where the studs were, so I could drill a hole for the dryer vent.
I have all the locations of: sewer pipes; water lines; cabinets; windows....you name it.
I don't know why the dealer won't do this.....too lazy..nobody seems to care at the dealer once they get their money. Everytime I ask the service dept. a question, they tell me to call Montana!

My two cents,

Roy

[bsmeaton]

quote:Originally posted by Dean A Van Peursem

I don't agree with the fact that there isn't wiring diagrams for a house. There is, you just have to get to the architect's drawings to get to them. How many outlets per line and to what lights and to what circuit breaker and what ratings .....are defined. The problem in the RV industry is they don't control the worker on the line to follow the engineering drawings even if there are any drawings or specifications. Just look at multiple Iota panels on several different but like model Montana units. Hand written designations because the worker decides where things go. There have been many reports here on this forum where owners have found outlets and lights on way different circuits than they are supposed to be on. Also others have reported drains going to the wrong tanks. I suspect there are engineering drawings and wiring diagrams but the reason we can't get those drawings is there is a high probability the unit wasn't built to those drawings or wiring diagrams. This creates high repair costs for the manufacturers under warranty, which we pay for on the initial price and extremely high labor costs for us when the unit is out of warranty. Hours to find how it was built so it can be repaired. This lack of wring diagrams and drawings is a true and major indicator of the poor manufacturing quality we are receiving. I know I will never buy another RV unless they can show me a wiring schematic of my specific unit before I purchase it. That may mean I will never ever buy another RV. So be it. PS: I heard they were Amish workers but they spoke Spanish! :-) I don't blame the workers. It is the management that allows this kind of stuff that is at fault and it is management that needs to be held accountable. Workers can be trained and held accountable if the management decides that is important. Apparently that isn't the case in the RV industry.

Dean, you are reading way too much into these posts. The Iotas do not move based on the discretion of the worker, it's planned event - not random, as it takes an engineering change. There are no reports of outlets on the wrong circuits, nor drains going to the wrong tanks. There are reports of onwer discoveries on circuits or drains that they didn't expect, but it sure wasn't a mistake at the factory. These are planned and engineered changes that occur throughout the year - and even on the same model. Besides, how would the owner know it was wrong when the owner doesn't know what the right way was if he has no drawings.

You've expanded on your observations beyond fact. As a result, you have a quality perception that is not based on fact. I realize you parked your unit and you hate it, but please don't fabricate falsehoods.

[Dean A Van Peursem]

besmearing,

The Iota's panels didn't move within like models runs and like years, I agree, but how they are wired does. I've looked at several different panels personally. If we can't get wiring schematics there is no way to determine if the change in wiring is due to an engineering change or a fit of indifference by the assembly worker. Neither one can be proved at this point. However, if a fuse is hand labeled and it doesn't connect to what the label states, is that an engineering change or assembly line creativity? I have personally experienced that in our RV. When I hear that the RV manufacturers have applied for ISO 9000 Standards certification and have been accepted, been audited and passed for a couple of years, I'll begin to believe that quality might be improving. You haven't worn the shoes of this late 2006 Montana 3400RL like we have the last 2 1/2 years. Undocumented or even unlabeled wiring and fuses is as bad as no wiring schematics. The front landing gear wiring and in-line fuse is not shown in any users documentation or even hand labeled. I've been personally involved in most if not all of the problems we have had to deal with on this 3400RL. I know what is going on and know what I am speaking of. Another example, when the bottom belly cover has to be taken off and the black tank has to inspected and/or removed to find what hand written part number is on it so the dealer can determine what to order for a correct replacement tank, then it is very obvious that the Montana factory has inadequate configuration control. I have a copy of the document from Montana Engineering that shows one of three different tanks that could have been installed. I went through that process. But they have no records by serial number or for a particular unit. That doesn't cut it in an organization trying to achieve or interested in high quality control standards. Facts cannot be disputed. And I know the difference between fabricated facts and True Facts. I've managed and been involved in achieving 9000 Standards Certification at several companies. I know what good quality standards are and know that on our late 2006 3400RL, Montana didn't come close. Whether things have improved on later units I cannot speak to and won't. The only caveat here is that maybe we just got a "lemon" unit but every single problem that we have experienced, including wiring anomalies, have been experienced, written about and discussed by other MOC members right here on the MOC Forums. We haven't experienced "one of a kind" failures. Now I might accept the fact that Richfaa and I have experienced more of them in our specific units than others. But quality problems did exist on our unit and probably still do. Hopefully to a lesser extent on the newer ones. But accusing a Montana owner of fabricating falsehoods, incorrectly, will only prolong the agony and is doing a disservice to future Montana owners. So the accusation of me fabricating falsehoods is totally out of line and an apology is in order.

[bsmeaton]

Out of respect I didn't call you names Dean, at least on-line, - so please show the same respect.

Your implications that the factory workers just radomly connect the washer drain to whatever tank they want, stick the converter where ever they want, or just wire in the lights and outlets to whatever circuit they want are FALSE. I noticed you backed off your original claim so my comment is over. Shuffle your feet in whatever direction you feel you need to go.

[Dean A Van Peursem]

I didn't back off on anything. I never stated that they moved the Iota panels. You created that assertion out of thin air. I was clearly referring to the wiring within the panel. You very clearly acused me of Fabricating Falsehoods. I have not, will not and never will. However, to take the lead in ending this ugly interchange for the sake of others I will make no further comments. Your apology is still expected however.

[SlickWillie]

Hmmm, do they really have an Engineer?