Trying to make sense of towing numbers...

[MikeRP]

Originally Posted by CADman_KS

Mike,

Thanks for reply. I personally don't mind having these civil conversations, and that's the way that we all learn, so THANKS!



We like it. Not everyone does, and that's fine. When I first showed the new trucks to mama back in early summer last year, she immediately said that she liked it, and we never saw one in person BEFORE we bought ours!

So, I have no first hand knowledge of prior years, because we went from a 2002 to a 2020!

All I know is that the RATINGS on the 2020's are up signfigantly over the prior years. I don't know if that means that they improved the springs or what???

What we also don't know, is if those prior year people had air bags on. I installed air bags on my 2002 2500 (way way under rated!), and I could get that thing as level or higher if I wanted.

I do need to measure what the overall squat is, but I think that I'm only about an 1" below level, and if that's the case, I'm not too concerned about it.

To the comment about not squatted at all, the pin weight on our 5er is close to 3000 pounds. That's a LOT to put in the bed of the truck!

I forgot to get a measurement hooked up yesterday, but I'll do that the next time that we are hooked up, so that I know what it starts at, and what it is at hooked up, and get a feel for where level is.

I'm under the opinion that if I put the truck in Tow/Haul mode, it's smart enough that it can figure out what gear it wants or needs to be in, so I'm going to leave it there.

Funny thing about that was that yesterday while towing, we were running at about 165deg tranny temp, which is nothing. I took it out of tow/haul and the temp went DOWN!, not up like it expected it too.

At the end of the day, the 10 speed transmissions in the Ford and GM are the ULTIMATE towing setup. In the GM, if it needs to shift down one gear, it does that, and your RPM's don't go from 2000 to 2500. It's able to manage that a lot better, and engine RPM's are much more tamed because of it.

Yeah, we have passed the point with all three HD truck makers that we should worry too much about truck ratings other than payload, hitch setup, and economics. There’s not hardly any RVers towing over 20,000 lbs and any HD truck drivetrain can handle 20000 lbs with ease.

So I think the discussion should switch to towing safely, hitch setup, fuel tanks, economics of the HD trucks, maintenance, etc.

Because a particular truck can get up the IKe 1 min faster towing a max load means nothing to me. If we were hauling 20,000 lbs up that hill all the trucks would get there the same time following the posted speed limit.

Now I’m a Ford lover but I drive a Ram. I’m still completely amazed that I can tow a fiver over some roads that toss me around in the truck and the steering wheel never hardly moves. I’m assuming late model Ford and GM products do the same thing.

Going from a 2002 to 2020 is like going from the Stone Age to living on the moon. Well that might be exaggerated. So a Ford is a Tiger looking for a meal and a Ram is a Mean A__ Grizzly and a GM is a Clydesdale looking for a babe. Haha. Peace

[powerhaulic]

These new GM's ride great even my 3500 empty.
Goid ride quality empty means the truck will squat untill the second and third stages of spring engage.
There is no reason to bag the truck unless the rear starts bobbing.
Engage tow haul, and exhaust brake, let the truck do its job. It is really very good at it.

I also changed tire size to gain capacity margin, went 295/65-20 for 4080 pounds each.

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by Montana Man

I assumed that was a towing mpg. My bad.

....

No worries. My apologies for yelling!!

Originally Posted by Montana Man

...

Would like to see a pic of the hitch setup in the bed. If that hitch point could move forward, it may help with leveling the truck.

I'm going to take some pics of it later when I'm home.

It's not as far off as it looks. That's what's deceptive.

At the end of the day, I can only move it forward 1", and that's not going to make any difference. One of my requirements is to be able to turn without fear of hitting my cab. My current setup allows for that. If I turned it around, hitting the cab would be a possibility...

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by powerhaulic

These new GM's ride great even my 3500 empty.
Goid ride quality empty means the truck will squat untill the second and third stages of spring engage.
There is no reason to bag the truck unless the rear starts bobbing.
Engage tow haul, and exhaust brake, let the truck do its job. It is really very good at it.

I also changed tire size to gain capacity margin, went 295/65-20 for 4080 pounds each.

I don't think that your setup is much different than mine, compared to squat.

It pulled really really nice yesterday, even "smooth" over "bad" bridges, if there is such a thing with the crappy bridges that we have now...

[lightsout]

My New Ram 3500 has the opposite problem my 3791RD does not drop the bed at all (less than 1") my truck still has bed high. I did install air bags before ever hooking up and now I have no use for them. To compensate for the lack of squat I had the move my pin box up a notch.

However looking at Cadmans pictures it looks as if the squat has elevated the front end which can be a problem with braking traction.

I took my 2019 Ram 3500 SRW CC and 2019 3791RD to the CAT scale the other day here are the results I was please with the results, Full disclosure I have added just over 900lbs ( I log weight of everything except food and cloths I have on board) as I added the rest of the camping gear (Kayaks, SUPs Bikes and BBQ's) however I only added 260lbs forward of the axels the rest was in the rear storage which actually offsets any forward gear added so if anything my pin weight stayed the same or reduced.

Here were the Cat scale results. While I gained weight on the forward axel it was not as much as I thought so my traction posture is still very good.

With the squat and the appearance of a lifted front en on Cadmans rig if he has not he should get it weighed...

Here are my Scale results

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by MikeRP

...

Going from a 2002 to 2020 is like going from the Stone Age to living on the moon. Well that might be exaggerated. So a Ford is a Tiger looking for a meal and a Ram is a Mean A__ Grizzly and a GM is a Clydesdale looking for a babe. Haha. Peace

LOL...

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by lightsout

My New Ram 3500 has the opposite problem my 3791RD does not drop the bed at all (less than 1") my truck still has bed high. I did install air bags before ever hooking up and now I have no use for them. To compensate for the lack of squat I had the move my pin box up a notch.

However looking at Cadmans pictures it looks as if the squat has elevated the front end which can be a problem with braking traction.

I took my 2019 Ram 3500 SRW CC and 2019 3791RD to the CAT scale the other day here are the results I was please with the results, Full disclosure I have added just over 900lbs ( I log weight of everything except food and cloths I have on board) as I added the rest of the camping gear (Kayaks, SUPs Bikes and BBQ's) however I only added 260lbs forward of the axels the rest was in the rear storage which actually offsets any forward gear added so if anything my pin weight stayed the same or reduced.

Here were the Cat scale results. While I gained weight on the forward axel it was not as much as I thought so my traction posture is still very good.

With the squat and the appearance of a lifted front en on Cadmans rig if he has not he should get it weighed...

I think that your math is backwards. You LOST weight on the front and gained on the back axle.

I'm like you as well, in that I have almost everything rear of the axle. The only thing that I have upfront cargo wise is a box of hose fittings, a mat, and some other misc stuff. All totaled, it doesn't weigh 50 pounds. We have less than 200 lbs in cooking stuff front of the axle. I also know that my pin weight is 2840 , weighed with all this stuff in it, which I had previously weighed.

I didn't have time to do all of this weighing last night when we got home, and this was the first time that we've actually pulled with it. The next time that the truck is full of fuel, I'll go and get the numbers empty, and then when I'm hooked up, I'll get the hooked weights, front / back / combined.

Luckily for me, I have access to a scale at any time that doesn't cost me anything...

[lightsout]

Originally Posted by CADman_KS

I think that your math is backwards. You LOST weight on the front and gained on the back axle.

I'm like you as well, in that I have almost everything rear of the axle. The only thing that I have upfront cargo wise is a box of hose fittings, a mat, and some other misc stuff. All totaled, it doesn't weigh 50 pounds. We have less than 200 lbs in cooking stuff front of the axle. I also know that my pin weight is 2840 , weighed with all this stuff in it, which I had previously weighed.

I didn't have time to do all of this weighing last night when we got home, and this was the first time that we've actually pulled with it. The next time that the truck is full of fuel, I'll go and get the numbers empty, and then when I'm hooked up, I'll get the hooked weights, front / back / combined.

Luckily for me, I have access to a scale at any time that doesn't cost me anything...

yes that was a typo,

However point being The balance change was for the most part insignificant to the front axel which I am pleased with. I should note that I have the Andersen turned for the SB so the pin/Ball location is well behind the goose neck. My problem is my rear is too high the 5th wheel is not level I was hoping the Ram would drop with the pin weight but it did not. Fortunately the Andersen hitch has a lot of adjustment that is easy to do however that will not get rid of the elevated bed height issue.

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by lightsout

yes that was a typo,

However point being The balance change was for the most part insignificant to the front axel which I am pleased with. I should note that I have the Andersen turned for the SB so the pin/Ball location is well behind the goose neck. My problem is my rear is too high the 5th wheel is not level I was hoping the Ram would drop with the pin weight but it did not. Fortunately the Andersen hitch has a lot of adjustment that is easy to do however that will not get rid of the elevated bed height issue.

Yeah, that's a problem for me too. If you go back and look at my side pics, I'm a little too high in the front of the 5er. However, I have the hitch as low as it will go, and if I pushed the pin up, i would be too close to the bed rails, so I'm basically "stuck" at this height.

And, if I was level, I would be even worse...

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by lightsout

...

With the squat and the appearance of a lifted front en on Cadmans rig if he has not he should get it weighed...

...

I finally had a chance to take it to the scales and get it weighed today.

This was the front axle with my wife and I in the cab, and everything that we carry in the truck:

5060#

With the 5er hooked up (fully loaded, ready to go out), my wife and I in the truck, front axle was:

4800#

So, yes, it went down, but it only went down 260#, so it's not that much. The truck doesn't feel at all like it's unloaded in the front. Like I said in some of my earlier posts, the pictures that I took make it look worth than it really is in person.

Also, for anyone interested, the reason that I started this thread was to get a handle on towing numbers. After getting everything weighed today, with my wife, me, all payload, pin weight, and a loaded camper, we are have about 280# left from 12,100 GVWR of the truck, which is actually more than I thought that we were going to be originally...

[Bob and Jeannette]

Subscribed so that I can see the answers to this.

[Ironhawg]

I'm relatively new to RV camping, so the discussion in this thread has been great for me. The wife and I started out a couple of years ago with a 34 foot travel trailer that our 2018 Ram 2500 handled easily. This year we decided to upgrade to a fifth wheel and bought a Montana High Country 331RL. Unfortunately now I am going to have to upgrade my tow vehicle. I'm debating between a one ton SRW or a one ton DRW truck. I believe the SRW would handle the 331RL, but I like the added safety of the dually for towing a fifth wheel trailer. This truck will be our tow vehicle until we can't go anymore. Am I overthinking this?

[phillyg]

It's probably safe to say that any recent model DRW truck can tow your HC. But, you need to know the loaded weight of the RV on the axles, and hitch, to know if a SRW can handle it, too. While a DRW is supposedly better handling while pulling, it's not always necessary.

[Ironhawg]

Originally Posted by phillyg

It's probably safe to say that any recent model DRW truck can tow your HC. But, you need to know the loaded weight of the RV on the axles, and hitch, to know if a SRW can handle it, too. While a DRW is supposedly better handling while pulling, it's not always necessary.

I haven't had a chance to get to a CAT scale but the listed pin weight on the HC is 2,265. The advertised cargo capacity on the Ram SRW with the Cummins and 8 foot bed is 5,540, so that would seem to indicate I would be safe with a SRW.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Ironhawg

I haven't had a chance to get to a CAT scale but the listed pin weight on the HC is 2,265. The advertised cargo capacity on the Ram SRW with the Cummins and 8 foot bed is 5,540, so that would seem to indicate I would be safe with a SRW.

The payload on my dually is just shy of 5500 so I doubt any srw has that rating. I think you looked wrong.

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by Ironhawg

I'm relatively new to RV camping, so the discussion in this thread has been great for me. The wife and I started out a couple of years ago with a 34 foot travel trailer that our 2018 Ram 2500 handled easily. This year we decided to upgrade to a fifth wheel and bought a Montana High Country 331RL. Unfortunately now I am going to have to upgrade my tow vehicle. I'm debating between a one ton SRW or a one ton DRW truck. I believe the SRW would handle the 331RL, but I like the added safety of the dually for towing a fifth wheel trailer. This truck will be our tow vehicle until we can't go anymore. Am I overthinking this?

I'm glad that this thread has been helpful to you!

As far as overthinking goes, I don't think that you're doing that by any means.

If you will not have any "issues" with a DRW, you'd obviously be better off that way. But, if you have garage issues, parking issues, daily driver issues, etc, with a dually, then you need to do your due diligence and make sure that an SRW will indeed be work for you.

You didn't indicate whether or not you were buying a new truck, but for GM products, at least, prior to 2020, were rated for a lot less than they are now, so that's something to think about. In order to make an informed decision, you're going to need to know the fully loaded pin weight on your 5er, and then go from there. Then, understand how much more payload you'll have, you, the wife, dogs, tools, extra fuel, wood, etc, and subract that number from the remaining payload to determine if you're OK with an SRW or need a DRW.

We have a 2020 Chevy 3500 SRW, and have a larger pin weight than you, and when fully loaded, and everything in the truck, we still have payload left, but it ain't much. We would have NOT made it in a 2019 and prior Chevy 3500 SRW...

[Ironhawg]

Originally Posted by Fish

The payload on my dually is just shy of 5500 so I doubt any srw has that rating. I think you looked wrong.

That number came off the Ram website and not a specific truck, so it is an estimate.

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by Ironhawg

I haven't had a chance to get to a CAT scale but the listed pin weight on the HC is 2,265. The advertised cargo capacity on the Ram SRW with the Cummins and 8 foot bed is 5,540, so that would seem to indicate I would be safe with a SRW.

Something is funny there.

The 4X2 single cab LB with a gasser, which would have the most payload, is only at 4740#. It goes down quickly from there when you start adding options, CC's, and a Cummins...

Where as a 2020 RAM 3500 LARAMIE LONGHORN CC 4X4 SB has a payload of only 3750#.

They go down quick when you start getting the bells and whistles!!

[Ironhawg]

I went back to the Ram truck website and used their towing "calculator" as I did before and I don't think that thing works right. I first specified a 2020 Ram 3500 4x4, 8 ft bed, Cummins high output turbo diesel, single rear wheel and got a set of max payload and max towing numbers. Then I specified a dual wheel truck and got the exact same numbers.
The short answer is that their "calculator" is not close to accurate. I'm just going to have to look on the door post of whatever truck I am looking at. I think either SRW or DRW will tow my trailer. Big decision coming up shortly.

[DaveK]

You'll be surprised how much weight you add when loaded. Front bedroom has lots of storage room plus the basement storage is big, not to mention other stuff you put in the bed.