3/4 ton versus 1 ton

[Phil P]

Hi

Too bad I didn’t make pictures of the 4 axels I scrapped a few years ago. They had 6V brakes on them and the technology was much different than the electric brakes today.

First off they were a band brake. The brake shoe was on continuous circler band that applied to the inside of a brake drum just like to today’s except they used a solenoid to apply the brake. These axels were wired so they could be used with a 12v system. They sure didn’t look like they would give a very good brake because of the lack of a master / slave system like is used today.

I just don’t remember the brand name of the axels I saw in MO but the width of the brake shoe would give those axels more stopping ability than what our trailer has on it.

I considered having the young man install them on the trailer but I was already a week late getting to my next consulting job.

Phil P

[farmall130]

IMHO, for me, it was all about pin weights. If you look on the door sticker in any truck, it will tell you the most it can weigh. Many, many people towing with 250 or 2500 series trucks are actually overweight. The gross weight on most new trucks in this series is 9900lbs. Subtract around 7800 for the weight of the truck. Then subtract the weight of cargo, people and fuel and the number comes out to around 1500-1800lbs. Most empty pin weights are more than this on our 5th wheels. The SRW 350 and 3500 series give a little more, but the dually provides enough pin weight and towing capacity for all but the heaviest of 5th wheels. In 2011, GM fully boxed their frames and added larger brakes. I chose a dually for the added weight capacity and stability, despite the drawbacks of parking it. And I would never run my toy thru a car wash anyway! I had a short bed 2500 and this long bed dually actually rides better empty. For me, it's just one less thing to worry about....

[twindman]

FWIW the Silverado 3500 has a GVWR of 11100 lb. More than 1100 more than the 2500. That should handle almost all Montanas. Given a weight of 7800 others used, that would leave 3300 lb for pin weight. I don't think many Montanas are that heavy.
On a side note, I didn't even consider a 3500 2 years ago because I thought they would be way more expensive. Turns out it is only around $1000 more. Drat!!!

[flinster]

The 3500 duel wheel is designed to pull more weight. Check manufacture towing brochure. GCWR (Gross combined weight).
The 3500 single wheel is designed to pull 1000 lb less than the duel wheel. 2006 Chevrolet information brochure.
I hope this will help you.

[Hooker]

There are two stickers you need to check. One, as noted above, gives GVWR. The other, The Tire and Loading Information sticker attached to the center pillar, gives the amount of total weight you can put in that truck to the nearest one pound.

http://www.gmcia.com/guide-2174.html

[Irlpguy]

I cannot state any facts regarding the difference in the 1 ton brakes as compared to the 3/4 ton brakes, if in fact there are any in a specific model year.
From 1987 till 2001 I owned a 3/4 ton Ford, never towed a heavy 5er but did haul my camper and towed a boat behind, brakes were "adequate" and the truck had anti-lock brakes and seemed almost impossible to lock them up. Drum brakes on rear.

2001 was my first 1 ton dually, a Dodge this time but again with anti-lock brakes, towed heavier trailers and our first 5er and our current Montana, I never locked the brakes but did on our SOB 5er on I5 in California, because of some idiot. All around disc brakes on the TV that were lacking in my opinion.

Now driving a 2012 Dodge 1 ton Dually with anti-lock disc brakes all around and so far have never locked them up either. Towing the much heavier Monty now, stopping is critical to both the operation of the TV brakes and the trailer brakes working properly. The assistance of the great Exhaust brake on the new trucks is huge. The best braking/deceleration occurs just prior to lockup and if you do not have sufficient brakes on the RV and somehow happen to lock the TV brakes you are likely in for an unpleasant stopping experience.

In my opinion it is not the RV brakes that may be less than adequate, it is the RV, they are no where near big/heavy enough for the weight of the vehicles now being produced.

I don't think a 1 ton SRW offers any better breaking than a 3/4 ton SRW. I think the DRW like mine which provides more rubber on the road increases the ability to stop even if the brakes are the same size as a SRW. No definitive answer only an uneducated opinion on my part.

[dsprik]

2013 GMC towing guide shows 3500HD SWR curb weight at 6612. GVWR is 10,800. As mentioned earlier, 5th wheel max towing capacity is 17,000 lbs. I am not sure about earlier years or the 2500HD. Also not sure on the brake sizes. I do know the stopping power while towing is a huge difference, both while towing and empty.

I am very happy with using my 3500 SWR for towing my 2007 Montana. It would be a little different maybe doing a lot of towing of one of the newer 16K Montanas...

[jlb27537]

quote:Originally posted by dsprik

2013 GMC towing guide shows 3500HD SWR curb weight at 6612. GVWR is 10,800. As mentioned earlier, 5th wheel max towing capacity is 17,000 lbs. I am not sure about earlier years or the 2500HD. Also not sure on the brake sizes. I do know the stopping power while towing is a huge difference, both while towing and empty.

I am very happy with using my 3500 SWR for towing my 2007 Montana. It would be a little different maybe doing a lot of towing of one of the newer 16K Montanas...

Dave, a 2013 3500 HD SRW with 2 folks in it, a hitch and full fuel will weigh close to 7500-8000lbs. I might be wrong, but have you weighed your truck? My '12 3500DRW with 1 person and 3/4 fuel weighs 8,460lbs. My pin weight on my 3150RL is 3,180lbs. My truck hitched up weighs 11,640lbs The difference in the weight of a SRW and DRW is maybe 200lbs? With your truck I would be almost 100% of GVWR and close to the rear axle GAWR.

A 17K Keystone will have 22%+/- on the pin so about 3740lbs give or take. If the truck weighs 7500 and you add 3740 that puts you @ 11,240, about 500lbs over GVWR. Sorry Dave, the numbers just do not work for me.

What is the difference in towing over weight a little bit or a lot? You are either over or not.

I like the safety provided by my DRW truck.

Jim

[dsprik]

Jim, I am going to weigh the truck in about two weeks. It is still stock out the factory except for running boards and soft tonneau cover. I would think that the 6618 on paper, while it may not be exact, it is very close. My 2002 2500HD weighed 6200 lbs. I believe this 3500 SWR is much less than 8500 lbs. There is nothing wrong with a DWR. I just have other needs for my truck and I feel very comfortable also with this as a TV. My pin weight of my 3400 is 2200# (two separate weights over the last couple years).

[Phil P]

Hi

Put it on the CAT scale.

I weighed the trailer without the TV and the landing gear on the pad for the TV's rear axle. The trailer did not exceed any of the published weights listed on the side of the trailer.

Then I weighed the TV.

Then I put the entire rig on the scale and I spent several hours arranging my load between the TV and the trailer to get the weights correct.

When I reach a total weight of 23,300 lbs I am very close to my TV’s front axle weight limitation.

This puts the trailer 500 lbs below its GVW rating and the TV within 50 Lbs of its GVW rating and the entire rig is 200 lbs below the TV GCW rating.

The conditions at the time of weighing.

TV loaded with all the items I believe I need to safely handle an on the road emergency like flat tire etc, two passengers, two dogs, and all of the road atlas and camping guide you know the “stuff” that just seems to collect in the TV, and full fuel.

The trailer had all of the “stuff” we need for our travels including the cat and my wife’s model trains and a full tank of water.

This was weighed when the trailer was 1 year old.

I weigh every time we are load to got the events my wife likes to go to with her train. That is when we are at the heaviest weight.

These things just seem to gain weight as you go along. LOL

Without the train we are way under the weight limitations.

The CAT scale tells all.

The state of Florida Supreme Court put the motor vehicle in the “Dangerous Tool” category many years ago. You have a “serious” accident in the state of Florida while over weight is a felony the same as accidently shooting some with your gun.

For this reason I am very careful of my weights.

Phil P

[dsprik]

If I was paranoid and only used my 3500 for towing, I would have a big boomer. a Freightliner or Volvo - there are some beautiful units out there. I am very comfortable with my TV, and I am still waiting to hear about any prosecution of negligence due to weights - doesn't mean there hasn't been any. I have seen ridiculous situations, as many of us have, that should be prosecuted. A 2013 3500HD SWR D/A pulling a 2007 Montana is not one of them.

[dsprik]

Also, I would add that most accidents - not all - are due to unsafe driving (not counting alcohol). Not someone 100-200 lbs overweight on one of their axles. Not that I am overweight. Well, not my truck anyway...

[jhudson]

quote:Originally posted by dsprik

Jim, I am going to weigh the truck in about two weeks. It is still stock out the factory except for running boards and soft tonneau cover. I would think that the 6618 on paper, while it may not be exact, it is very close. My 2002 2500HD weighed 6200 lbs. I believe this 3500 SWR is much less than 8500 lbs. There is nothing wrong with a DWR. I just have other needs for my truck and I feel very comfortable also with this as a TV. My pin weight of my 3400 is 2200# (two separate weights over the last couple years).

My 2012 Silverado weighs loaded with two generators, extra 6 gallons of reg fuel, two passengers and one dog........8220#. My GVWR for my 2012 is 11600# which leaves 3380# for pin load. My pin weight on my 3725 is 3200# which leaves me under by only 180 pounds of my 11600# GVWR. All figures are from a CAT scale.

Maximum trailer weight for my 2012 is 16900#. I find it interesting that the rating are quite bit different in one year. Is the 2013 GMC a diesel? .....Sorry I just looked....it is a diesel. Brings me to another question....

What is the axle rating for the front axle?

What is the axle rating for the rear axle?

Mine are 6000# for front axle and 7050 for the rear. I would think that the rear should be the same as mine, because of the limit of the tires to 3525# rating. The front axle of my truck is higher because of the snow plow option. It is rated higher. Maybe this is why you are lower rated?

Jay

[farmall130]

In today's lawsuit happy world, I'm just not willing to take a chance on the possibility of something happening that's my fault and getting sued because I was overweight. I've got a "light" Montana, a 3100RL. But the pin weight is heavy enough to put me at the edge if all the gear is loaded in, especially since all the storage is in the front on a 5th wheel. Thousands of folks use 2500 series trucks, and they all get by fine. And since my wife and kid are in the truck with me, I'd rather have the cushion of a truck rated for much more than I'm towing....

[Phil P]

Hi

Unfortunately I do consulting for DOT companies. Mostly paperwork review to see their records are being kept properly.

If you are involved in a serious accident while your blood alcohol is over the limit or your vehicle is overweight the accident becomes your fault even if the other vehicle was driving on the wrong side of the road.

All vehicles involved in a serious accident in the state of Florida are subject to weighing just as all drivers involved in a serious accident are subject to alcohol testing. With the exception of commercial vehicles this is left up to the investigating officer. A serious accident involving a commercial vehicle the DOT regulations require drug and alcohol testing of the commercial driver and the investigating office cannot wave that.

Within the last year a fellow with the same attitude of “it will never happen to me” had a minor accident. They did weigh his TV and Montana. He was cited with the accident because he was overweight (Dodge 2500). It was one of those deals we see all the time a driver wanting to make a right turn ran around him and when he got in front of the rig slammed on the braked to make the turn. Normally in this state the driver of the vehicle that changed lanes to close the vehicle that hit him would be charged with the accident. Fortunately it was minor with no injuries and neither vehicle needed to be towed so the result was a fine.

I had had a conversation with him just a few months before. At least he had the courage to apologize to me for some of the things he had said during that conversation. He is now pulling his Montana with a Dodge 3500 DRW.

Why take the chance? If the CAT scale says you are overweight correct the issue.

Phil P

[jlb27537]

Jay, Thanks for confirming what I thought I knew. A 3500 SRW truck weighs more than 6,612 lbs.

Jim

[1retired06]

There is a difference. Ford Fifth Wheel Towing Specs for 2011 Diesel Crew Cab 4X4. F250 SRW: 14.4 F350 SRW: 15.7 F350 DRW: 21.5 That is the bottom line from Ford. And when I was involved in an accident on the interstate in St Louis, where the other driver was cited and I was not, I was still escorted by the state trooper to the nearest scales to verify compliance/noncompliance.

[dsprik]

OK, this for the weight police. Confirm this...

http://www.gmc.com/sierra-3500hd-pic...abilities.html

Curb weight = Weight of the truck (6,612).
I do not lie. This is GMC's website.

[Irlpguy]

According to Dave's link the 2013 HD SRW Crew Cab, Standard box has a curb weight of 6610 and a GVWR of 10,800.

That is considerably different than the same truck equipped with the diesel engine which has a curb weight of 7375 and a GVWR of 11,500.

Comparing the specs of the extended cab long box DRW with a curb weight of 7718 and a GVWR of 13,025.

This indicates a significant difference in the gas SRW and the diesel DRW in the same year.

There is so much more in a lot of respects with a DRW, I would never want to tow with a SRW, and since I have had one for a long time I don't mind driving it anywhere. Some places it will just not fit and I accept that as a small inconvenience.

[jhudson]

quote:Originally posted by dsprik

OK, this for the weight police. Confirm this...

http://www.gmc.com/sierra-3500hd-pic...abilities.html

Curb weight = Weight of the truck (6,612).
I do not lie. This is GMC's website.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the link. It answered my questions. The capabilities you listed were for the gas engine and not the diesel. You also have the standard bed and Crew Cab compared to mine which is the extended long bed. As Irlguy stated, your truck is much higher in its capabilities, thereby this is the reason I was confused with your numbers. Running my truck with the link, the specs for the GMC is exactly the same as mine. Only difference is that my front axle is 6000# and the non-plow unit is 5600#.

I really am not the weight police, but I do like numbers. Look at them all the time....and as I have said it here before, if it works for you, that's great. I love my SRW Silverado and I know many folks here wouldn't even think about towing my 3725 without a DRW, because my weights are very close with my SRW, but again it is their opinion. The truck handles very nice with the load, and when I am unhitched, it is much easier to use. But again this is my opinion, based on assumptions I have of the DRW. I have not towed with or driven a DRW, so I can only guess.

Thanks for the link,

Jay